Did Chinese Civilization Come From Ancient Egypt?

a reply to: Marduk

History starts with the first letter

originally posted by: Harte

Odd, considering no DNA testing of any ancient Sumer remains has been reported on yet to my knowledge.
There has in fact only been one set of remains found that might be amenable to DNA analysis, and those remains were "rediscovered" in 2014, four years after the date you claim, and not reported on yet (again, to my knowledge.)

Harte

They Dna tested rice iirc, then instantly claimed as it was Indian, that it must have come with civilisation, then backed that up with the claim that the water buffalo originated in south east Asia as well. They seem to be blissfully unaware that the Meluhha civilisation traded between Harappa and Sumer,, both rice, water buffalo amongst others, from around 3000BCE

There is sufficient archaeological evidence for the trade between Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. Impressions of clay seals from the Indus Valley city of Harappa were evidently used to seal bundles of merchandise, as clay seal impressions with cord or sack marks on the reverse side testify. A number of these Indus Valley seals have been found at Ur and other Mesopotamian sites.[7][8] The Persian-Gulf style of circular stamped rather than rolled seals, also known from Dilmun, that appear at Lothal in Gujarat, India, and Failaka Island (Kuwait), as well as in Mesopotamia, are convincing corroboration of the long-distance sea trade network, which G.L. Possehl has called a "Middle Asian Interaction Sphere".[9] What the commerce consisted of is less sure: timber and precious woods, ivory, lapis lazuli, gold, and luxury goods such as carnelian and glazed stone beads, pearls from the Persian Gulf, and shell and bone inlays, were among the goods sent to Mesopotamia in exchange for silver, tin, woolen textiles, perhaps oil and grains and other foods. Copper ingots, certainly, bitumen, which occurred naturally in Mesopotamia, may have been exchanged for cotton textiles and chickens, major products of the Indus region that are not native to Mesopotamia—all these have been instanced.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Marduk

History starts with the first letter

what "H" ?

a reply to: Spider879

Yeah that's interesting..

Well with the Silk Road there might have been cross breeding with Asians and Africans. Or maybe those genes were in the Africans in the first place. Some believe the earliest humans came from Africa while others believe it was South East Asia. Who knows?

I think Asians may have come about from particular climates where the narrow eyes and facial profile was beneficial. Also regional diet may have all played a part. I even heard stories of particular alien races who look Asian, while others look Nordic .. Who knows?

a reply to: violet

I think the Asian/Chinese/Mongolian lineage crossed the Bering Strait over into the Americas who descended into the Eskimos, American Indians and South American Indians.

The question of the bronze pottery.

Of the 200 or so items of bronze ware he was responsible for analyzing, some came from the city of Yin. He found that the radioactivity of these Yin-Shang bronzes had almost exactly the same characteristics as that of ancient Egyptian bronzes, suggesting that their ores all came from the same source: African mines.

Ok not that the artifacts were of Hyksos make, but the materials responsible for them matched those from Africa, if the bronze were not Nile valley, but made in the city of Yin, why go through the trouble of bringing African dirt to make stuff so far away to produce new style upon arrival if they indeed came by ship as he suggested , especially since local supply abound.

originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: Spider879

Yeah that's interesting..

Well with the Silk Road there might have been cross breeding with Asians and Africans. Or maybe those genes were in the Africans in the first place. Some believe the earliest humans came from Africa while others believe it was South East Asia. Who knows?

I think Asians may have come about from particular climates where the narrow eyes and facial profile was beneficial. Also regional diet may have all played a part. I even heard stories of particular alien races who look Asian, while others look Nordic .. Who knows?

Well that certainly took place, although at a much later date, one scientist Xie Xaiodong of Lanzhou Uni, claimed that the ppl in the village of Liqian in western China carried genetic makers for Asians,Europeans and Africans some tried to connect them to the so called lost Legion of Rome, however , they could just be connected to traders imo.

a reply to: Spider879


Summer valley, they all came from Summer......even before Narmer and the Yellow Emperor did.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Spider879

Northern Africans is a mix of Semitic and sub-saharan Africans, Sumerians ( known as black-head ) were likely from India.
Trading route stretching from Ancient egypt ( and its gigantic fields ) to China..

Its not that hard to see when things progressed, when did China enforce cultural laws?

Now remember that it were the Sumerian scribes that in records referred to the locals as black headed people. Chines scribes did the same anciently when referring to the masses.

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Spider879

Something happened in ancient Mesopotamia that brought about human intelligence.

Nonsense. Modern humans (complete with modern intelligence) have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

He means the first demonstration of dynastic rule/state organization like its found everywhere was oldest in Summer. In fact its all patterned after Summer to this day right down to that dollar bill in your pocket.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Spider879


Summer valley, they all came from Summer......even before Narmer and the Yellow Emperor did.

The Chinese came from Sumer?? , I think not unless you are going to go tower of Babel on me, the Chinese or the ppl that would become Chinese were there for x thousands of yrs, doing stuff , the question is whether or not some immigrants had some early influence, it's not like the land was devoid of ppl , culture or civilization, to what extent had they organized as a state pre Shang and were some of the Shang foreigners.

a reply to: Spider879

Well notice how many of these areas went through the early city state era and then around 3200+- the wars of unification began. All these wars resulted in the introduction of orders that brought with them basically the same set up, pantheon (with different faces and names) state craft ect.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Spider879

Something happened in ancient Mesopotamia that brought about human intelligence.

Nonsense. Modern humans (complete with modern intelligence) have been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

He means the first demonstration of dynastic rule/state organization like its found everywhere was oldest in Summer. In fact its all patterned after Summer to this day right down to that dollar bill in your pocket.

No it's not, Ta-Seti as far as we have current info maybe the world's first organized state, now I am not saying that the Sumerians at least the earliest version of them did not have urban life but that was different than being organize as a state.

a reply to: Spider879


Ok I should have said in the same vain or fashion, the proto type. For example Summer has the oldest known royal tomb, after the manner of royal tombs. All of the major civilizations of the earth including central america employ Mesopotamian iconography.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Spider879


Ok I should have said in the same vain or fashion, the proto type. For example Summer has the oldest known royal tomb, after the manner of royal tombs. All of the major civilizations of the earth including central america employ Mesopotamian iconography.

As far as royal tombs goes, it's a toss up between Sumer especially Ur and Ta-Seti as both have royal tombs at 3800 B.C and I'd be careful of hyper-diffusionism, sometimes ppl arrived at similar artistic and cultural expression without it being a question of real contact..however I cannot say 100% that contact in some form or another didn't take place.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: tikbalang

Northern Africans is a mix of Semitic and sub-saharan Africans, Sumerians ( known as black-head ) were likely from India.

Perhpaps now, but DNA of Queen Tiye etc tells us the Egyptians originated from the Great Lakes Area with influx of other cultures occurring soon after Rameses III (last New Kingdom Pharaoh) when the might of the Egyptian empire fell.

The person drawing this conclusion did not actually read the DNA reports correctly. Although the Y Haplogroup to which Ramesses III (who was not the last New Kingdom pharaoh, by the way) belongs to is E1b1a from East Africa (not Uganda) and emerged long before Ramesses III. In fact, many European males have this Y haplogroup since it arises some 25,000 years ago

originally posted by: Spider879
Both Sun’s ideas and the controversy surrounding them flow out of a much older tradition of nationalist archaeology in China, which for more than a century has sought to answer a basic scientific question that has always been heavily politicized: Where do the Chinese people come from? Sun argues that China’s Bronze Age technology, widely thought by scholars to have first entered the northwest of the country through the prehistoric Silk Road, actually came by sea. According to him, its bearers were the Hyksos, the Western Asian people who ruled parts of northern Egypt as foreigners between the 17th and 16th centuries B.C., until their eventual expulsion.

He notes that the Hyksos possessed at an earlier date almost all the same remarkable technology — bronze metallurgy, chariots, literacy, domesticated plants and animals — that archaeologists discovered at the ancient city of Yin, the capital of China’s second dynasty, the Shang, between 1300 and 1046 B.C.

The problem with nationalist theories is that they are usually NOT produced using a great deal of knowledge about other countries. In this case, the Hyksos are NOT the first peoples in the Levant to develop bronze. The reason that the Egyptian bronze and Chinese bronze were similar was that they both had trade routes that ran through Sumer and India (Egypt first used iron and bronze obtained by trading rather than from their own mines.)

In addition, it's well known that there are Chinese cultures such as the Jahu that were present (but are not considered true civilizations) as far back as 8,000 BC with traces of people before then. There are a few areas in China with bronze technology that develops far before Egyptians and Hyksos (who are still not completely identified... they are a mixture of a number of peoples.)

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Spider879
Both Sun’s ideas and the controversy surrounding them flow out of a much older tradition of nationalist archaeology in China, which for more than a century has sought to answer a basic scientific question that has always been heavily politicized: Where do the Chinese people come from? Sun argues that China’s Bronze Age technology, widely thought by scholars to have first entered the northwest of the country through the prehistoric Silk Road, actually came by sea. According to him, its bearers were the Hyksos, the Western Asian people who ruled parts of northern Egypt as foreigners between the 17th and 16th centuries B.C., until their eventual expulsion.

He notes that the Hyksos possessed at an earlier date almost all the same remarkable technology — bronze metallurgy, chariots, literacy, domesticated plants and animals — that archaeologists discovered at the ancient city of Yin, the capital of China’s second dynasty, the Shang, between 1300 and 1046 B.C.

The problem with nationalist theories is that they are usually NOT produced using a great deal of knowledge about other countries. In this case, the Hyksos are NOT the first peoples in the Levant to develop bronze. The reason that the Egyptian bronze and Chinese bronze were similar was that they both had trade routes that ran through Sumer and India (Egypt first used iron and bronze obtained by trading rather than from their own mines.)

In addition, it's well known that there are Chinese cultures such as the Jahu that were present (but are not considered true civilizations) as far back as 8,000 BC with traces of people before then. There are a few areas in China with bronze technology that develops far before Egyptians and Hyksos (who are still not completely identified... they are a mixture of a number of peoples.)

Perhaps an interesting topic if not covered already, would be the spread of bronze technology and the horse driven chariots , it is clear the Chariot was introduced into the Nile valley by Hyksos invaders and quickly adopted by them, they may even had the same effect on the ppl west of them, see Saharan rock paintings, did the ancient Shang independently developed these technologies or was it through diffusion or direct influence as suggested by Sun Weidong .
And you are correct that the article named Uganda a modern state with that genetic marker, however in a broader sense Uganda is very much apart of the Great Lakes.
The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all , perhaps an Hurrian element with Laventine and Kush-ite mix, I said Kush-ites because one of the delta kings carried the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

a reply to: UnderKingsPeak

I don't think they're saying the Chinese were behind the Egyptian civilisation.

As for the Nazis, yes exceptionalism. But more important they were students of the occult and believed in "Aryan supermen".

Very interesting theory.

a reply to: Byrd

Thanks Byrd for your input. I agree that DNA can never be conclusive but it can be used with other information to help us form a better understanding of history. A company in US that uses STR genetic markers developed by the FBI for geographical analysis concluded from Ramesses III DNA results that....

Among present day world populations, Ramesses III’s autosomal STR profile is most frequent in the African Great Lakes region, where it is approximately 335.1 times as frequent as in the world as a whole.
....
Specifically, both of these ancient individuals inherited the alleles D21S11=35 and CSFIPO=7, which are found throughout Sub-Saharan Africa but are comparatively rare or absent in other regions of the world.

Link

originally posted by: Spider879
Perhaps an interesting topic if not covered already, would be the spread of bronze technology and the horse driven chariots , it is clear the Chariot was introduced into the Nile valley by Hyksos invaders and quickly adopted by them, they may even had the same effect on the ppl west of them, see Saharan rock paintings, did the ancient Shang independently developed these technologies or was it through diffusion or direct influence as suggested by Sun Weidong .

Try
Moorey, Peter Roger Stuart. "The emergence of the light, horse‐drawn chariot in the Near‐East c. 2000–1500 BC." World Archaeology 18.2 (1986): 196-215.

and
Piggott, Stuart. Wagon, chariot and carriage: Symbol and status in the history of transport. London: Thames and Hudson, 1992.

and
Kuznetsov, P. F. "The emergence of Bronze Age chariots in eastern Europe." antiquity 80.309 (2006): 638-645.
(this one's available at Academia.edu)

I'm sure there's others out there.

The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all

It's the other way around... as they adopted the culture of Egypt, they identified Set with one of their gods. But they didn't adopt Set as a new god.

the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

I think this may have been an alliance of convenience - Kush never liked being part of Egypt. Egypt wanted their gold and kept reconquering them every time a strong militaristic pharaoh ascended to the throne.