Climate Change Denial: Why?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
The "consumer society" is a huge part of the problem. In my opinion.

Well, considering that everything is made to be replaced instead of repaired, I absolutely agree. Not many things anymore are engineered so that the average capable person with a screwdriver or a wrench can even take it apart, let alone repair what may be damaged.

We are a throw-away society, and have been since about the 70s on. If we don't fix that, nothing will change.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I think we agree on a lot more than you realize. Deforestation, pollution of our waters, overfishing, and even fracking are bigger problems than global warming in my opinion.

We are causing serious problems and we are not living in a sustainable way, unless something changes soon we will continue to give our next generation a dirtier and less healthy planet.

originally posted by: jrodAbout fracking, there is growing concern that Florida's anti- environment leaders are paving the way to open up Florida to fracking....recently legislation was passed that eased the pollution levels for our waters.

Wow...I know that Florida's geology isn't exactly the same in all areas, but I would think that fracking an area so prone to sink holes and temporary flooding from heavy rains and in the path of a lot more hurricanes and tropical storms than, say, Pennsylvania, would be a bad idea.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Thank you so kindly!! I am glad we've had this introduction.

(I know you speak your mind, I've seen you around.... Now you know I speak mine, too.... *high five* )

a reply to: SlapMonkey

That does sound sketchy at best. I'm still pissed about the Gulf Oil Spill.
I've worked as a volunteer doing trail maintenance and cleanup. When I was a kid I wanted to be a Park Ranger. A Forest Ranger. Unfortunately, some of the math and chemistry courses were beyond me, but I did well in biology, geology, and that kind of stuff. Astronomy and physics kinda booted me out....

and after college I learned all I could anyway - just from living and studying and immersion and experience.
Like Redneck said. And my husband did the same, growing up in the rural hills of the Ozarks (northern Missouri) - studied horticulture, husbandry, veterinary medicine, etc. Grew up hunting and hiking and fishing and helping on a small farm that ran a few head of cattle, a few acres of pasture, some horses, some timber. Fixing up old barns, throwing hay, building fence, all that stuff.

I've done that stuff, too. Had a 2.5 acre "hobby farm" when my kids were small. Boarded, bred, trained, raised, and sold horses. Also taught riding and handling to people, private lessons. Helped out our local vet at other ranch visits, and learned how to vaccinate, treat wounds, diagnose, etc. One of the best days of my life was when my mare was foaled.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I am serious, here are a few links that show why many Floridians are concerned:

www.sourcewatch.org...

www.psr.org...

a reply to: Bennyzilla

To BUZZYWIGS

I'm afraid after studying this issue for the last 5 years - the following sums up the reality -

rape" of the earth - you won't be the one behind how anything happens to save it. The ones who are behind it will use your good will and intentions to drive their policy which will most likely involve taxing people for existing. If anything you should be more mad that people are hijacking your cause and turning it into a money making scheme under the guise of being on your side.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I don't deny Climate change, the sun will always change the climate of the earth. The sun is what controls the weather on the earth.

Right now, the sun is getting hotter. (it is summer though).

I do deny Global warming because it is a hoax. The real graphs show that the polar ice caps GAINED more ice the past year, contrary what Global warming enthusiasts say.
Arctic Has Gained Hundreds Of Miles Of Ice The Last Three Years

Is rising sea levels going to make any difference after the elite make their nuclear war wet dream become reality ?

I am a surfer, I would have noticed this "rise of sea levels" while surfing the waves.

Facts 1
pC 0

a reply to: Indigo5

Maybe I misread you; if so, I apologize. I just get pretty tired of hearing people complain that we should have [insert pie-in-the-sky here] simply because they want it.

I know there are plenty of new-tech energy projects out there. Nice to meet someone else working on one.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: SoulSurfer
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I don't deny Climate change, the sun will always change the climate of the earth. The sun is what controls the weather on the earth.

Right now, the sun is getting hotter. (it is summer though).

I do deny Global warming because it is a hoax. The real graphs show that the polar ice caps GAINED more ice the past year, contrary what Global warming enthusiasts say.
Arctic Has Gained Hundreds Of Miles Of Ice The Last Three Years

Is rising sea levels going to make any difference after the elite make their nuclear war wet dream become reality ?

I am a surfer, I would have noticed this "rise of sea levels" while surfing the waves.

Facts 1
pC 0

Maybe you're right but I just read this...

nsidc.org...

and it said the ice is less. So...who do I believe?

Second question. Would you actually notice and inch or two in sea level rise..even being a surfer and on the beach daily?

a reply to: amazing

I would notice a change like that because to a surfer it can make a difference. if anything though, I noticed I could walk out more outward while the water is still around my waist. Which suggests a lowering of sea levels, not a rise of it.

I have the place mapped out, from entry point to point break. ( We HAVE to do this, because we need to know the dinamics of the ocean while we surf, along with the currents. It can make a difference between life and death while surfing the waves.)

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: raymundoko

Yep, I am pretty sure you just proved that you are a narcissist. In your opinion, are you ever not the smartest person in the room?

Are you a climatologist or a psychologist? Are you either, neither, or both?

Your diagnosis of narcissism is irrelevant to this thread, and probably irrelevant in life as well. I strongly suspect you are neither a psychologist nor a climatologist. Whether or not raymundoko is a narcissist means nary a thing in a climatological discussion - it does not automatically make him wrong, no more than it makes you right.

It's just... irrelevant.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Jeesh. Things have changed here, too. I'm only 31, and things feel like they've changed a whole deal, weather wise we're talking about. Born in this city, been in this town since I was 9. We had a frikken tornado a couple years ago! Recently we had a storm that wrought havoc with more tornadoes (not here, mind you, way up North) and snow, hail, and wind which this country just ain't used to... well... that's the thing, just 'cause it's not everyday, every year, after year, doesn't mean it shouldn't be normal. There are stories of these kinds of storms in our recent history.

There are 10 year, 50 year, 100 year, 200 year, 500 year, storms. There are storms and other weather occurrences that have cycles of 1000's of years.

I'm not a political climate change denier, nor am I a supporter.
What I am a supporter of is taking care of our planet! Doing right by her, for the betterment of future generations, if for nothing else... the whole planet, everything on her, not just us humans.

It sucks that we are were we are (sociologically, but it's better than a couple hundred year ago, right? ...and it gets better, I hope). I think it sucks that we're greedy mofo's, corrupt to stab even ourselves in the back for a buck. It sucks that it takes something negative like ruining species and the environment, with a tinge of political propaganda, to get us to open our eyes to the obvious: Humans are smart enough to decide not to # were we sleep!
God did not present this Earth to us to devour. There will never be another Earth.

What really sucks is that the big boys get away with it. Corporations, too big too fail, do nothing, absolutely nothing to curb their influence on the environment. It will take many more years for the man on the street, if he is willing, to make enough change in his world, to have any effect upon those who would dictate his world for him. And that is the problem with society. If it was democratic to the man on the street there would be only that which is good for all... not just those feeding from the top.

This whole climate change fiasco is grade A bull excrement. The ONLY positive about it is something we would hopefully empower regardless, and that is simply mindfulness of our situation right here, right now, what can we do to make things better? I think that has been mans goal forever, even when he is misguided, how can I make things better? The only difference, in our time, is the resources, the information, that can influence that mantra.
How can we make things better?

Sorry for going off on a tangent.
It's what I do.
As well as apologizing.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Fascinating with c for example, which probably makes perfect sense from a non-german perspective, is in this category of news I'm re-learning constantly. And sometimes there's new news on the table - this was one of those rare moments (for various reasons I can not share without completely busting the framework, so I won't). Kudos to you, Nerdneck! It's been a pleasure thus far and I'll try my worst to keep it coming.
Glad you like the paper, so do I! But I just happened to stumble across the PDF with full access, colours and glitter. Say thanks to pthena for kickstarting this exchange with providing the original link.

Thanks, pthena!

I would still like to see the coding for their model

Which one? One part is a variant of the optimal fingerprinting algorithm they mentioned first in the introduction. And then there's that:

We use ensembles of simulations to produce a more accurate estimate of the model’s response to forcing. We use a different model to estimate the response to external forcing and, in particular, use different and physically based estimates of the direct and indirect forcing due to sulphates. We also include estimates of the response to natural forcings (due to changes in solar irradiance and major volcanic eruptions), which have been neglected in many previous detection and attribution studies. Finally, we quantify the contribution that various combinations of forcing agents have made to twentieth century temperature change

Definitely more than one other study they work with, must be a truckload of simulations full of various codes alltogether. Or something like that, just take a look at the references. Pretty mindblowing.

But now it's my time to be confused, where and when did I miss the heat island effect? The only thing I ran across in this context are the forcings from changes in land-surface properties, which they didn't consider for this paper. And since there wasn't any further improvement mentioned, I simply searched the text: Heat: 3 - Island: 0 hits.
Looks like a clear match to me, in other words: I'm lost on the island, bring me up to heat please!

You've mentioned our excellent workout in another post full of questionable - but interesting - points and I'm going to aim my pointed stick at that one soon. It's a nice conversation indeed, one of the few things I'm always looking forward too.

a reply to: SoulSurfer

mmmm.... okay.........

steven goddard or whatever.


If that's your only source, then ------
no. Please provide peer-reviewed and scientifically sound study results.


All of us who actually know stuff are happy to provide sources. Not everyone accepts them.

a reply to: Jimjolnir

Wow. Nice post. I appreciate your time and effort to compose and send it.

I am totally on board with what you present there.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: primespickle
In 200 years people will look back on our generation and say through their gas masks "holy s--t I cannot believe the people of the past were so selfish and dragged their feet solving the impending doom headed towards the planet.

Actually, I think they will be looking back with their transhuman eyes from a semi-socialistic robot supported utopia and say, 'Thank God they got all this stuff figured out for us so I can play Pokémon Go in spectacular virtual universes and not get off my ass ever again.'

Or something like that.

But I am not talking about that.......

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
But I am not talking about that.......

Semi-satirical reply to the pessimist, amore mio.

a reply to: SoulSurfer
Some apparent sea level drop is due to tectonic plate movement. The land is rising rather than sea lowering.

Understanding Plate Techtonics
There is a fishing boat channel I've seen in the PNW which must be dredged every 10 years or so because the land is still rising there. You can look at the cliffs and sea striations like tree rings showing the rise.

I'm probably sort of confused by most of the arguments involving what has become "climate change" - but was once "global warming" and before that in the late 70's and early 80's was "global cooling", with the predicted at that time onset of a new ice age.

Like TheRedneck, I believe the politicization of it, making of it a political football and tweaking people's emotions to get with the program are ridiculous, and do more harm than good. When emotional arguments run away with folks, logic goes out the window, and without logical thought, no lasting solutions can be reached. Emotions come and they go, and arguments based upon them are bound to fail, fall, rise, and fall again.

From anecdotal evidence, I absolutely cannot deny that the climate is warming - but neither can I see that as a bad thing. That probably makes me a "climate denier" at the same time as NOT being one.

I grew up in the southwestern part of Virginia - west of Roanoke, north of TN, east of KY, and south of WV. The part of the state that the rest of Virginia forgot about. Growing up, it was lush and green, viney and jungle-ish around here. There was an old man I hung out with back then, mostly because he stayed drunk and kinda needed someone to look out for him as he thrashed around in the brush in these mountains, to make sure he got home alright. One day, we were fishing on the Clinch river, and he looked out over the water (I got the impression he was looking at something I couldn't see), and after a bit he mentioned that when HE was a boy, that river froze over every winter, hard and thick enough to take horses out on it to cut ice and haul back home in sledges to fill the ice houses with for use over the summers. By the time he was old and I was just a boy, that no longer happened. There might be a fringe of ice on the river banks at times, but it never froze over like it used to.

Flash forward a bunch of years. That old man died several years ago, victim of his daughter forcing him to stop drinking. Within 3 months, his mind was gone and within 6 months he was dead. Now I'M the old man, but without the pickling to preserve me. I left here nearly 40 years back, and just returned home a couple of years ago, and the changes wrought over that time are phenomenal. It doesn't get as cold or stay as cold as it did when I was a kid, although the summers seem to run to about the same temperatures. The river doesn't even fringe with ice any more. And the life here now... my God, the LIFE! I've not seen anything this lush and luxuriant since I left the jungles in Central America - it's even more viney and jungle-ey now than it was when I was a kid. A lot more. What were pastures back then are new-growth forest now. The front yard of the house I grew up in is a tangled thicket, well on it's way to being reclaimed by the forest.

When we were driving through eastern KY on our way back here, I mentioned to my wife that we were moving to the rain forest again, and she laughed, didn't believe me. Well, she's a believer now! When I was a kid, I saw exactly ONE bear the entire time I was living here. Now, we have 3 in the immediate neighborhood whom we refer to as "Mama Bear, Papa Bear, and Baby Bear", because we have a small, medium, and large bear. There are elk here now - never were any at all when I was growing up. The place is absolutely eat up with white tailed deer, to the point that I catch them grazing in my yard in the mornings. There are of course the ubiquitous coyotes now which were not here when I was a kid, and most recently timber wolves have moved back in, probably because of the elk population. Huntsman spiders I never saw back then are endemic now - my sister calls 'em "tarantulas" because they're so big. I've no idea where they came from or how they got here, but here they are, right along with the warmer weather.

We are being overtaken by the wild again, and I'm loving every minute of it. Sure, based upon what the old man told me when I was a kid, and what I'm seeing now AS the old man, it does appear to be warming, but I'll be damned if I can see the down side to it.

So, I don't deny that it's warming, but I do deny that it's a BAD thing... then again, that may only be because I'm living in the middle of the Garden of Eden the warming is creating. I knew, way back when, and feel even more strongly now, that the way to deal with change it to roll with it, change yourself to suit your world. You don't fight nature, because momma nature will kill you dead for hubris. Instead, you become an integral part of it, you adjust yourself to fit the environment rather than attempting to adjust the environment to fit YOU.

Otherwise, Mother nature has no pity, and will kill you off as an intruder.