A warning for Christians.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Szarah

Yes, but H2O is only used as a symbol for the Word of God. That is the water that is relevant. To be washed in the Water of the Word is far more important that dunking yourself in water. That is what it means to be born out of water.

If John baptized with water and Jesus was baptized by water and all the first disciples with water, saying it isn't as important as the results is fine, but the results are a product of the baptism that involves water.

I won't just ignore the instructions of Jesus because you don't understand why it is important that water be a part of baptism.

Jesus knew the significance of being born of the water. That is what God instructed him to teach so I won't question it.

I have done it and it worked. That is all I need to know.

originally posted by: Metallicus
You can't leave God out of the picture and pretend you follow the words of Christ. I am not saying you should be a Christian, but don't fool yourself and think you can be a righteous Atheist.

Why not? *IF* Jesus, or the human that is known as Jesus, was real and he said the things he did - why can't I agree and uphold them as well? Why are they limited to Christianity?

Peace, love, tolerance, philanthropy, selflessness -- these are not "divine" attributes. These are human attributes that, at some sordid stage in human social development, attributed them to the divine.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You do realize that my thread aims at holding Christians, who believe in the Bible, to a higher standard than denominationalism? This has nothing to do with atheists, agnostics, or other religions.

So why do you make it your business to pretend that you know more than we do about spirituality?

Who knows, you just might be as wrongs as you claim that we are, or worse.

1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Basically, its simple psychology. You're projecting yourself onto me. In a universe where Divine Justice (or what YOU may call Karma) always has the last word; what goes around will come back to YOU.

Non-denominational Christianity is a Christian denomination that says it isn't. But they have churches, beliefs and clergy just like Protestant, Baptist and Catholic churches do.

If you are teaching anything Christ didn't teach, like the Kingdom of grace and justification by faith you aren't following Christ.

The New Testament is two paths with one true and one false. There is Jesus, James, Peter, John and all the 12 Apostles and disciples of Jesus and co. The Gospels and letters after the false teachings of Paul that is spelled out in Acts and confirmed in Galatians. Paul hates the Apostles.

So you can choose one or the other but not both.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
If you are not already a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, know that eternal life is as simple as believing that Jesus,

No, no, no.

First you are saved.

Then you believe.

There is nothing you can do to get yourself saved. There's no work to be done.

When it says, by their actions you will know them, it means thats how you can tell if a person is not saved.

It doesn't mean that good actions will save them. They are already saved, those that do the good works.

That's why they do the good works. Because, they have been saved.

Not all who do good works are saved.

Many think that by doing good, they'll be saved. But, here's what Jesus said,

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity. -- KJV, Matthew 7:23

Many think they do good works, and deserve saving. But, it's not so. Only the "selected" are saved.

No man is saved by anything he does, or anything he thinks, or anything he believes. First, he is saved, then all else follow.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Szarah

Yes, but H2O is only used as a symbol for the Word of God. That is the water that is relevant. To be washed in the Water of the Word is far more important that dunking yourself in water. That is what it means to be born out of water.

Water isn't only a symbol for the Word of God. Where do you get this?

It is literal water that you get baptized in.

The Word of God is Christ. Christ is beyond symbols and no symbol conveys the true Christ.


Being born of water is both a literal process done in water if possible and symbolic of redemption and renewal.

As the Flood destroyed the Nephilim who were destroying humanity and washed away the evil of pre flood civilization and gave earth a fresh start with the pure Noah, baptism does the same except we become born of the Spirit as a result of water baptism.

Your symbolism needs calibration.

Christ is the Word.

Water is NOT a symbol for the Word in any way. You made that up or heard it from somebody who is not correct.

a reply to: Szarah
Perhaps the video below contains some information about the subject and phrase "born again" that has some information you or others here haven't heard before about that subject, it's actually 4 parts but I'll only share the first (and hope people will look for the other 3 parts on youtube themselves):

a reply to: AMPTAH

verse 21,24 and 26 make it even more clear (or have even more important things to be reminded of in comparison with human doctrines/teachings and traditions), I'm going to quote from another translation though first, for clarity, NWT:

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. [note that the Father of Jesus whose name is Jehovah (in the same english language, the name Jesus is spelled differently in different languages as well) IS in the heavens when Jesus is speaking those words on earth]

24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock.

26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Some more sayings of Jesus in his model prayer (a.k.a. the Lord's prayer) in the previous chapter (part of the same 'sermon on the mount', as many people call it), Matthew 6:9:

“You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.* (* = Or “be held sacred; be treated as holy.”)

Referring to both the actual name of his Father in the heavens, (English: Jehovah; Hebrew: Yehowah, after transliteration to the Roman Alphabet and considering the vowel marks from the Masoretic Texts dating back to around the 9th century and the oldest discovered bible manuscripts that have vowel marks for Hebrew) as well as what and who it stands for. Some people in this world don't want you to do the above which is part of "these sayings of mine" (quoting Jesus).

The King James Bible says pretty much the same thing (in old english):
Matthew 7:21

You can compare many bible translations there if interested with the verses I quoted. KJB included.

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Szarah
Perhaps the video below contains some information about the subject and phrase "born again" that has some information you or others here haven't heard before about that subject, it's actually 4 parts but I'll only share the first (and hope people will look for the other 3 parts on youtube themselves):

Perhaps. Can I ask before I watch if it is a Christian production or one that speaks of the far more ancient origins of the concept born again?

Because I have heard enough Christian interpretations of born again that I'll literally get pissed if I hear another person claim that it is Christian in origin because they don't care to find the truth about it.

If jesus knew that the bible was going to be the best way to get the word of god out to the world, why didn't he write it himself? Did he not understand the enmity that this confusing book would cause?


Why did he let so many humans put their own twist on the words of god?

Watching christians bicker about what the bible means is about as much proof as anyone needs to see that the book makes no sense. No matter what it says in one paragraph, you can find something that contradicts it in the next one. You three cannot even come to a consensus about what the words blood and water mean. How can you possibly believe that your interpretations of interpretations are any where near what this alleged god is trying to put forth?


Why didn't jesus just write the bible himself? Are there any passages in the bible that confirm that jesus wrote anything? Was jesus/god illiterate?

a reply to: Szarah

I'm only asking because you three seem to think you know what jesus and god are thinking and what they "really" meant to say.

a reply to: Woodcarver

All I say is that the Bible is a mostly a myth designed to preserve the teachings of a great man.

What he says is what is important.

And the extent to which I know what he is thinking.

I never claimed to know a thing about the true Father of the Universe.

I only reiterated what Jesus says.


God can do anything he wants. I don't ever question why. I trust everything to be just in the end. Heaven will be problem free. Deal with earth sucking until then.

I guess Jesus was more concerned about teaching than writing.

He never said he was making the world perfect just us.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
If jesus knew that the bible was going to be the best way to get the word of god out to the world, why didn't he write it himself? Did he not understand the enmity that this confusing book would cause?


Why did he let so many humans put their own twist on the words of god?

Watching christians bicker about what the bible means is about as much proof as anyone needs to see that the book makes no sense. No matter what it says in one paragraph, you can find something that contradicts it in the next one. You three cannot even come to a consensus about what the words blood and water mean. How can you possibly believe that your interpretations of interpretations are any where near what this alleged god is trying to put forth?


Why didn't jesus just write the bible himself? Are there any passages in the bible that confirm that jesus wrote anything? Was jesus/god illiterate?

a reply to: Szarah

I'm only asking because you three seem to think you know what jesus and god are thinking and what they "really" meant to say.

The actual bible is probably much smaller which would eliminate contradiction with many things. The church decided what that is and thinks you will burn if you don't follow contradiction.

Example: who are Luke and Mark? Why would there be first hand gospel from these mysterious men? Wasn't Matthew and John enough?

Paul goes blind in the story but then becomes another apostle indoctrinating the New Testament with Jewish customs such as women requiring a head garment etc..

Meanwhile Jesus hangs out with a hooker and eats with a tax collector and when he's dying invites a thief to heaven.

a reply to: NumberMan

Mary Magdalene was no hooker. She was more likely a prophetess.

a reply to: Szarah
It discusses the only place in the bible where the phrase "born again" is found, in what some people refer to as the Christian Greek Scriptures (John chapter 3, some of it was quoted in the OP). It's a conversation between Jesus and a Jewish religious leader.

I guess discussing something from the Christian Greek Scriptures when it's accurate can be considered what you call a "Christian production".

What might be interesting to investigate is how what you refer to as "the far more ancient origins of the concept born again" compares to the teachings regarding this point from the majority of churches in Christendom; and then there's another possible comparison with what's in the video. To see where the similarities and differences are.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Sorry for judging you and putting words in your mouth. I hope you can forgive me.

@BELIEVERpriest you seem like a smart man, why would god limit himself with petty human traits like vengeance revenge or even anger, all human traits, god as you perceive "him" is an energy being that you feed with your thoughts, the being you think of as Jesus who now identifies as the Christ consciousness also the holy spirit and can manifest as a person with enough mental energy. All these identities you created in your mind passed down from a few hundreds of years, this book has caused more pain and suffering than any other known in this age, if the Bible was never codified by Constantine the writings about the saviour in those days would have likely led the world into a golden age that we would still be living in, in reality what happened was complete mind control through an invisible mechanism called fear, imposed by an impossible to believe in eternity in hell condemned by a loving(but cruel?) God all for a lifetime's sin or even one, sorry dude that doesn't sound very merciful to me, instead mercy is always one more chance, reincarnate baby..

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Sorry for judging you and putting words in your mouth. I hope you can forgive me.

Of course. It isn't like I'm perfect. I'm a very conflicted person, in many ways. You and I have a history of kinda sorta making an effort to bridge the gap, but I'll never believe the notion that "all you have to do is say" I love Jesus (rather like saying abra-cadabra or open-sesame or let me in).



It just simply doesn't make any sort of sense to me. I think his message was much more about works.

a reply to: Fahrenheit

Welcome to ATS!!! Might wanna break up your posts into paragraphs for easier reading.....

I totally agree with you that if only the actual lessons had been heeded (those taught by various wise and old souls) we could very well have that right now.

But, we don't.
*sigh*

I think the Bible should be archived with all anqituated but mythology as an example of failed doctrinal literature.

a reply to: Fahrenheit

So you think god goes to all the trouble to manifest as a person and teach us the way to life, gets killed for it, and then lets some dude wreck all his work by codifying a book? That's a small god.

a reply to: whereislogic

The prologue to John:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Are you a son of God?

originally posted by: Cinrad
a reply to: Fahrenheit

So you think god goes to all the trouble to manifest as a person and teach us the way to life, gets killed for it, and then lets some dude wreck all his work by codifying a book? That's a small god.

No god didn't do any of that stuff, we did..