EPA Chief concedes climate rule; it's about 'reinventing a global economy'

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: Sargeras

The observations are crystal clear, we are causing CO2 to rise sharply. There is NO DEBATING THIS REALITY!

Yes there is... During a warming cycle CO2 levels also increase naturally... Of course, the AGW camp proclaim that land volcanoes only emit a small amount of CO2, but the fact is there is an estimated 3 million volcanoes in our ocean floors. That's not counting the degassing of CO2 from other areas. The amount of CO2 released naturally is much greater than the amount of CO2 mankind emits. As our oceans have been warming naturally since the 1600s, the warmer oceans have been releasing more and more CO2. But the AGW camp proclaims that the entire spike of CO2 we are seeing is from mankind?... lol...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

This is why any sane person must question the Government funded science behind 'climate change' and human impact on changes. It is all part of the Globalist's plan to control the unwashed masses.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Yes, I did listen to the video... Did you?... It seems you have not. Starting at around 4:00 (minutes) Mr. Mckinley of West Virginia mentions the IPCC report which states that "if we terminated ALL coal fired power plants in America and if we didn't burn one ton of coal in America, the total reduction of CO2 in the globe would be 2/10ths of 1%...

Do you have any idea what will happen to all those people who work in coal fire plants, and everyone who provides services, or resources to coal fire power plants?...

There have been already tens of thousands of workers who have lost their jobs...

Coal Miners Struggle to Survive in an Industry Battered by Layoffs and Bankruptcy

By CLIFFORD KRAUSSJULY 17, 2015

WAYNE, W.Va. — There is pain across the nation’s coal fields, but here in West Virginia, the disruption is particularly acute.

Mines are closing almost every month. Sawmills that provide wooden support beams for the tunnels are laying off workers, and diners are putting up signs asking their customers to pray for the miners.

The coal industry, long the heart that pumped the economy here, is in deep trouble, buffeted by power plants switching to cheap natural gas, crippling debt, mounting foreign competition and increasingly strict regulations to limit greenhouse gases and toxic emissions like mercury.

“It’s just the times we are facing,” said Mitchell Maynard, a miner, as he left the Camp Creek mine recently after one of his last shifts before he and more than 400 of his co-workers lose their jobs.
...

www.nytimes.com... r=0

That's just one sector that the "extreme austerity measures" would effectively shut down.

How many other energy sector would also be affected? Every one of them as long as CO2 is released.

Did you listen to the whole video?... Did you listen to the EPA administrator state that this is not to combat pollution, but rather a new global economy they want to implement?... It appears you did not listen at all...

Don't worry.

Soon the optimum level for human population will be tossed around, and eventually implemented.

Around 500 million people. Unfortunately, the warmists have no real use or function, they didn't make the list.

Ok so ignoring the World Congress that wants to Tax for global warming, who have we got here on this site that has workable low cost solutions to help augment fellow ATS posters and their friends, families and Neighbors?

Are their any workable open source public domain solar power panel / wind power designs that people can put on their houses to lower their carbon foot print... (oh wait Federal State County and City governments are Fining and Fighting those people when ever they do it.)

Is there a Push to plant Trees on property that is not used for farms? What is the Minimum distance between trees. (I know trying to do that here in Lubbock Texas gets the City attempting to fine you under their Ordinances and Code Enforcement.)

Where are the solar powered cars and Electric cars that are suppose to be cheaper then Normal Cars. ( Lost under Government Regulations that drive their prices of manufacture up to high for the common man.)

Wait every Viable thing that the common everyday man can do to help push toward stability is Blocked by the Same Government that is pushing Carbon Taxes How is that for Hypocrisy.

It is not about Fixing the Problem it is about how Much they can Brainwash the Sheeple and Milk them for all they are worth.

Stop arguing, and making this personal, the science is settled.

Just more terrorists doing terroristic stuff.

a reply to: CoBaZ

It's called localization of resources.

Google should have plenty of links for you.

I believe permaculture practices would be something to consider.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Well those paid IPCC scientist are just using models that are wrong and can't predict anything

Do you know which report that was or just gonna take his word for it? I can't for the life of me find it anywhere besides that video. I guess I should just trust him? No reason for a politician to lie or stretch the truth right.

And you have a fair point about the jobs, I don't have that answer. That would have to be part of the plan to be able to retrain those folks. That is the same question I always have for the people that want to cut the gov and screw those people out of a job.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: Sargeras

The observations are crystal clear, we are causing CO2 to rise sharply. There is NO DEBATING THIS REALITY!

Yes there is... During a warming cycle CO2 levels also increase naturally... Of course, the AGW camp proclaim that land volcanoes only emit a small amount of CO2, but the fact is there is an estimated 3 million volcanoes in our ocean floors. That's not counting the degassing of CO2 from other areas. The amount of CO2 released naturally is much greater than the amount of CO2 mankind emits. As our oceans have been warming naturally since the 1600s, the warmer oceans have been releasing more and more CO2. But the AGW camp proclaims that the entire spike of CO2 we are seeing is from mankind?... lol...

You're going off a poorly-worded abstract, or outright misrepresenting things.

The oceans have not been 'warming since the 1600s' as you claim, it's been discussed on ATS before:

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

FROM THE ABSTRACT:

Why rely on the abstract when the article is available?
marine.rutgers.edu...

So if the Pacific and Antartic Oceans were warmer during the MWP then current temperatures, it proves that the MWP was both global in nature AND warmer then current temperatures

That would depend upon what layer you are talking about. Global sea surface temperatures are higher now than they were at any time in the past 10,000 years. It does not seem that the MWP was warmer than the present in the southern hemisphere, based on surface temperatures, however at deeper depths there is a better correlation in both hemispheres.

It is apparent that there was an overall cooling trend through most of the Holocene. This is also apparent in other temperature reconstructions, however something changed a great deal fairly recently.

The comparison suggests that Pacific OHC was substantially higher during most of the Holocene than in the past decade (2000 to 2010), with the exception of the LIA. The difference is statistically significant, even if the OHC changes apply only to the western Pacific (~25% Pacific volume), although there are indications that similar trends extended farther east (15). The modern rate of Pacific OHC change is, however, the highest in the past 10,000 years (Fig. 4 and table S3).

The current response of surface temperatures to the ongoing radiative perturbation is substantially higher than the response of the ocean’s interior, due to the long whole-ocean equilibration time.

In summary. Modern increases in radiative forcing have caused an increase in ocean heat content at a rate much higher than that seen in the past 10,000 years. The oceans are aborbing more heat faster than ever. That heat is coming from the oceans' surface. That heat is caused by increased radiative forcing.

With the current El Nino, we are seeing some of that heat which has been being absorbed released into the atmosphere so we see a spike in temperatures. But the OHC is still increasing. Just like the strong El Nino of 1998, this one is a spike in a trend. As will be the next one.

I mean seriously, at this point I can just copy & paste past rebuttals from various ATS members. You are recycling the same bull# as others before you, if you haven't done this yourself previously anyway.

originally posted by: CoBaZ
Ok so ignoring the World Congress that wants to Tax for global warming, who have we got here on this site that has workable low cost solutions to help augment fellow ATS posters and their friends, families and Neighbors?

Are their any workable open source public domain solar power panel / wind power designs that people can put on their houses to lower their carbon foot print... (oh wait Federal State County and City governments are Fining and Fighting those people when ever they do it.)

Is there a Push to plant Trees on property that is not used for farms? What is the Minimum distance between trees. (I know trying to do that here in Lubbock Texas gets the City attempting to fine you under their Ordinances and Code Enforcement.)

Where are the solar powered cars and Electric cars that are suppose to be cheaper then Normal Cars. ( Lost under Government Regulations that drive their prices of manufacture up to high for the common man.)

Wait every Viable thing that the common everyday man can do to help push toward stability is Blocked by the Same Government that is pushing Carbon Taxes How is that for Hypocrisy.

It is not about Fixing the Problem it is about how Much they can Brainwash the Sheeple and Milk them for all they are worth.

It's a difficult problem.

Not having a solution to a difficult problem does not make the problem go away, however.

What about you - do you have any solutions to the problem, supposing it true?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse
Anyway, re: the actual topic (this rule), it's not surprising.

Government is flailing around trying to solve what looks to be an unsolvable problem.

Think about that for a second. All this crap they're throwing out there is just flailing around, trying to do something about climate change.

The carbon tax idea?
That's economists' solution to things. They think it'll reduce CO2 emissions by ~the power of the invisible hand~ which is almost laughable.

Regulations shutting down coal?
That's another shot in the dark, this time by a pseudo-independent agency whose mission is to protect the environment. Dirty old coal mines are a longtime target of the EPA - a familiar foe. Something they can grapple with...

They don't have a clue how to solve the problem of anthropogenic climate change.
And, realistically? Nobody else does, either.

Perhaps this is why you and others are confused; you see conspiracy from these meandering ideas to halt CO2 emissions, because their ideas just don't make a lot of sense in directly addressing the problem.

I don't have much hope that anyone will think of something. We're probably just screwed, by our own actions.

so you admit its happening and man made

that's progress I guess

This is what I never understood about this whole climate change from the rising co2, they want to tax us to combat climate change, then do what with it? Invest it into corporation's to create more renewable energy sources etc?
How much co2 is created by companies using machines to build renewable resources infrastructure?

Has everyone forgotten that co2 is food for tress, plants etc then oxygen for us? I'm not saying humans haven't contributed to the rise in co2 by coal burning and so forth buy what I am saying is maybe deforestation is one of the leading reasons why there's such a spike in co2. If nature is the reason why we have oxygen to breath and live. Why not just plant more? Even better why not build a machine that's solor powered that does what nature does turn co2 in oxygen? But then again, why wouldn't they create something that doesn't make money....... Oh thats right, The only thing the runs this world is money.

originally posted by: eisegesis
Excellent video. S+F

The world must unanimously stand together on the issue and apparently, they don't. What will it take for our governments to realize that this problem cannot be solved through taxation? How about a reduction in military spending followed by an increase in renewable energy investment? Germany is setting the bar, why can't others follow in their footsteps?

Germany Could Be a Model for How We’ll Get Power in the Future

In the central space of the bunker, where people once cowered through the firestorm, a six-story, 528,000-gallon hot water tank delivers heat and hot water to some 800 homes in the neighborhood. The water is warmed by burning gas from sewage treatment, by waste heat from a nearby factory, and by solar panels that now cover the roof of the bunker, supported by struts angling from the old gun turrets. The bunker also converts sunlight into electricity; a scaffolding of photovoltaic (PV) panels on its south facade feeds enough juice into the grid to supply a thousand homes. On the north parapet, from which the flak gunners once watched flames rising from the city center, an outdoor café offers a view of the changed skyline. It’s dotted with 17 wind turbines now.

Further reading: Link

How many coal fired power stations are India and China building each week? The USA is closing down power stations and exporting the coal to China. Solar panels are the future. You even get small solar panels for your car that trickle-charge the battery. Homes can collect what sunlight there is (it doesn't have to be direct sunlight) and store that in batteries for use later on.

In the last 35 years the planet has greened considerably .. So IMO CO2 ain't all bad: darn sure better than ice covered ground.

It has quite a lot to do with life on our planet, and very positively so. Over the years, ever since 1804 when Swiss plant physiologist Nicolas-Théodore de Saussure first demonstrated that peas exposed to high C02 concentrations grew better than control plants in ambient air, numerous experiments have been performed to determine the effects of enriched C02 atmospheres on plants.

In 1982 Dr. Bruce A. Kimball, a plant physiologist at the Agricultural Research Service of the US Department of Agriculture undertook a comprehensive review of all such studies on effects of higher CO2 concentrations on plant growth and agriculture yields. Kimball found that C02 enrichment had an overwhelmingly positive effect on yield. Of 437 separate observations only 39 yielded less than their respective controls.

In brief, the billions of taxpayer dollars that have gone to study ways of burying or otherwise eliminating CO2 from our atmosphere are little more than attempts to diminish one of the essential drivers of “the main source of food, fiber and fuel for life on Earth.” Perhaps the future of our planet is not as bleak as doomsday prophets like Bill Gates or Al Gore claim.
journal-neo.org...

journal-neo.org...

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The science is clear, we are changing the climate with our CO2 output.

Please link your findings


The alarming thing about the CC Crowd is that anytime a scientist comes forward and says "woah, wait a sec. Your research claims this, but my research has contradicted those figures. Let's peer review this..." The CC Crowd leaps forward shouting down and trolling/sending hate mail to silence the debate labeling them neanderthal climate change deniers. This is unheard of as scientists pride themselves on the peer review process. T0 know their figures are solid and they encourage people to prove them wrong.

In the 90s it was all about CFCs. Chlouroflurocarbons which were eating away at the protective atmosphere around our planet and about to destroy the world. In many countries they banned CFCs while countries such as China and India still use them. Suddenly 2000s roll along and poof. No more talk of pesky CFCs..... what happened?

Now this crowd have jumped onto the Global Warming Wagon.... when this is no longer an effective way of guilting people what will the next global disaster be? Ice Age?? Everyone I know who agrees with the Carbon Tax or Global Warming is so scared they live with this looming fear every day of their lives. Their building bomb shelters and buying bulk supplies. They listen to catastrophists like Tim Flannery declaring that in 2016 "it will never rain again"

And I'm sure the Survivalists and Catastrophists will bow down and scream that mankind is bringing about the End Times but this is all based on fear. Fear and questionable science.

a reply to: Kalixi

Now this crowd have jumped onto the Global Warming Wagon.... when this is no longer an effective way of guilting people what will the next global disaster be? Ice Age?? Everyone I know who agrees with the Carbon Tax or Global Warming is so scared they live with this looming fear every day of their lives. Their building bomb shelters and buying bulk supplies. They listen to catastrophists like Tim Flannery declaring that in 2016 "it will never rain again"

In fact there has been little in the way of a actual respectful debate from both sides with one another .This CBC show"" Why can't we have a grown-up conversation about climate change?"" www.cbc.ca... 782/why-can-t-we-have-a-grown-up-conversation-about-climate-change-1.3570559 Is well worth a listen to .On one side

I think the big mistake that the environmental community has made is in pointing fingers and refusing to create a narrative that recognizes that when we started building out the oil sands fifty years ago...we didn't know what we know today. And when those engineers studied and those boilermakers studied and got those jobs, they didn't know what we know today. Now we know. So what are we going to do together? - Tzeporah Berman

while on the other side

So much of climate policy is purely symbolic. It's a facade. The 1.5 [temperature increase limit] at the Paris talks — it's in the agreement, but the national contributions don't add up to 1.5, they add up to something close to 3 degrees. It is all symbolic...There's no prospect, based upon the numbers, that the Paris deal will limit temperature increase to 1.5 degrees, in spite of all of the agreement that that's what the goal should be. - Bruce Pardy

It has audio ...www.cbc.ca... affairs&subsection3=the_sunday_edition&contenttype=audio&title=2016/05/15/1.3570559-why-cant-we-have-a-grown-up-conversation-about-climate-change?-&co ntentid=1.3570559

Michael spoke to Tzeporah Berman, one of Canada's most prominent environmentalists, and Bruce Pardy, a law professor at Queen's University who specializes in environmental and property law, about the Fort McMurray fire, the Leap Manifesto, and how to have a conversation about climate change that is simultaneously intellectually honest, economically responsible, and politically possible.

originally posted by: 727Sky
In the last 35 years the planet has greened considerably .. So IMO CO2 ain't all bad: darn sure better than ice covered ground.

It has quite a lot to do with life on our planet, and very positively so. Over the years, ever since 1804 when Swiss plant physiologist Nicolas-Théodore de Saussure first demonstrated that peas exposed to high C02 concentrations grew better than control plants in ambient air, numerous experiments have been performed to determine the effects of enriched C02 atmospheres on plants.

In 1982 Dr. Bruce A. Kimball, a plant physiologist at the Agricultural Research Service of the US Department of Agriculture undertook a comprehensive review of all such studies on effects of higher CO2 concentrations on plant growth and agriculture yields. Kimball found that C02 enrichment had an overwhelmingly positive effect on yield. Of 437 separate observations only 39 yielded less than their respective controls.

In brief, the billions of taxpayer dollars that have gone to study ways of burying or otherwise eliminating CO2 from our atmosphere are little more than attempts to diminish one of the essential drivers of “the main source of food, fiber and fuel for life on Earth.” Perhaps the future of our planet is not as bleak as doomsday prophets like Bill Gates or Al Gore claim.
journal-neo.org...

journal-neo.org...

This 'CO2 is plant food' talking point is dumb.

Do you think plants are made of only carbon and oxygen?