Does welfare and social security challenge the free market?

In a perfect free market world poverty would actually be a point of contention as the people would demand more due to the fact that there would be no net to catch them.

Am I right about that premise?

So the free market came to a screeching halt with the first minimum wage hike, and then again when they added social security.

Would the market demand a better wage in order to effectively compensate for a retirement if the government didn't create a social security system?

What do you think ATS?

in a fully realized free market, the no net drop would be so extreme that crime would skyrocket.
If you are watching your child starve to death, you will quickly stab someone for their wallet without any remorse..nightly.

This would inevitably lead to higher security, more elitist areas of barricades, and ultimately a very divided society that cannot sustain itself..not in a place where it is your right to own a gun..because those guns would be used to make a living.

So, welfare, SS, and other net programs help maintain a level within the market that allows continued participation, and in turn helps the market out itself with customers spending every penny they get back on their products.

Would a business pay much higher wages for people if they didnt have SS?
why would they do that? businesses dont even want to put people on full time in order to skirt around benefit requirements like healthcare, employment comp, etc...no, businesses are not merciful. the 17th-19th century america can demonstrate that with rampant poverty for most, penny pinching, etc. there are reasons these social programs were initiated..it was to correct a terrible problem.
Once you see people on your own street starve to death, you start to want some action (that doesn't involve you making everyone a ham sandwich personally every day)

a reply to: SaturnFX

So the removal of these programs would quickly highlight issues and initiate massive change immediately?

a reply to: onequestion
Social programs backed by tax payer money threaten business owner by posing as an unstoppable competitor. You can't compete with the deep pockets of the government and the printing power of the Federal Reserve. Once the free market is tamed by the government programs, then prices sky rocket to feed the hungry hungry hippos in Washington.

Socialism should be illegal.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Socialism should be illegal.

What would Jesus' economic model look like? Please keep in mind large and congregated populations in your response.

a reply to: windword

Jesus would live and let live. He would encourage people to give and forgive, but never demand contibution. He would also rebuke dishonesty.

His government would be unlike anything history has ever produced.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: onequestion
Social programs backed by tax payer money threaten business owner by posing as an unstoppable competitor. You can't compete with the deep pockets of the government and the printing power of the Federal Reserve. Once the free market is tamed by the government programs, then prices sky rocket to feed the hungry hungry hippos in Washington.

Socialism should be illegal.

Competitor?
Who is desperate for the broke old man starving demographic to give them a warm bed and a meal for free? not really seeing the economic model that is upset about government taking up that target audience.

Move past the ideological rhetoric and look at what you are saying. read some history, socialism in its pure form doesn't work..kinda terrible, but social programs allow capitalism to stand..its the foundation. we can debate on how much foundation is needed, not if its needed at all though.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Socialism should be illegal.

What would Jesus' economic model look like? Please keep in mind large and congregated populations in your response.

Fish Magic centric economic model!

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: windword

Jesus would live and let live. He would encourage people to give and forgive, but never demand contibution. He would also rebuke dishonesty.

His government would be unlike anything history has ever produced.

So, a community gets together, make a model of pooling some money together to help out the poor, its the agreed upon amount in that community, and anyone else can come live if they agree to this pooling system for a small amount of their earnings to help out the people in need.
and you are saying Jesus would say no, crumble this community, don't pool money together or make requirements for your own community...live and let live and don't help each other in such a way.

Are you dishonest or just unthinking? I think you may be confusing Jesus with Lucifer..check to see if your bible says "holy" verses "satanic"...

a reply to: SaturnFX

It's because of our social programs that the starving old man can't afford to pay for the inflated prices of food, utilities, and healthcare. Just watch, as we become more socialized, starvation will equalize all of us while your socialist heros live high on the hog. Maybe they'll toss you some crumbs.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Jesus would give us the choice to contribute as a community, unlike the federal government who just loves to collect taxes against our will.

Calm down.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Jesus would not be greedy. How do you remove that factor from the free markets, the ones that caused the 2008 crash?

Corporate Welfare and bail outs definitely #s on free market principles

a reply to: MOMof3
The government bailed out those companies. That is what made the crash so dangerous. If those companies had been allowed to fail, other more honourable prospectors could have filled the void. But no, the government wanted to give more money too the greedy...tax payer money to be exact. That's the hallmark of socialism .

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: SaturnFX

Jesus would give us the choice to contribute as a community, unlike the federal government who just loves to collect taxes against our will.

Calm down.

Maybe Jesus would, maybe Jesus would not. Ananias and Sapphira

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: windword

Jesus would live and let live. He would encourage people to give and forgive, but never demand contibution. He would also rebuke dishonesty.

His government would be unlike anything history has ever produced.

So, a community gets together, make a model of pooling some money together to help out the poor, its the agreed upon amount in that community, and anyone else can come live if they agree to this pooling system for a small amount of their earnings to help out the people in need.
and you are saying Jesus would say no, crumble this community, don't pool money together or make requirements for your own community...live and let live and don't help each other in such a way.

Are you dishonest or just unthinking? I think you may be confusing Jesus with Lucifer..check to see if your bible says "holy" verses "satanic"...

I'm pretty sure if Jesus took an in depth look at where his taxes where going he'd tell uncle sam to # off

a reply to: windword

Those are people who said one thing and did another. They promised 100% and with held from their contibution.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Are you a prophet? We know what happened not what might have. I have friends in late 60's who still can't retire from that market collapse. Thank god no one stole their social security.

a reply to: MOMof3
When a dynasty falls, another takes its place. That's how this world works. In this case, the government filled that void rather than the free market (which could have created more jobs). Now, thanks to the government, your friend will never retire, you will never retire, and nor will I. You don't have to be a prophet, you just need to stop letting your emotions do the thinking for you.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am retired because I did not have a 401. Anyway, I see you are a peddler of free market principles and all that cause it is an election year. Update the propaganda and training.