Cancer and chemo

originally posted by: saadad
Yea but thus tests are done on rats on purpose. If it works on mice most probably will work on humans. So it is high chance it will work, be positive.

Unfortunately success with mice doesn't mean success with humans, many times what works with them doesn't work with us.

originally posted by: UniFinity
so what you are saying, just becouse there is no such evidence in science for humans than one should not even bother to try on their own experiance, if one refuses chemo? Got it, thanks!

Yes! Do not risk you life unnecessarily when we have evidence about some treatments working. New drugs are being made and tested all the time, some with great success, see this: www.abovetopsecret.com...

way to attached to science. If one refuses chemo, than it is expected that such a person does not care for what science says so much...own experiance should be priority and testimonies of people who got better on their own. There are many!

Testimonials can only be credible with evidence, people lie all the time, don't you know that?

But if you want to talk about testimonials, let see the famous ones that have tried the natural way: Steve Jobs, who regretted not having surgery and chemo and passed away. And what about Tommy Chong who said he had cured his cancer with cannabis? Well, his cancer is back and really agressive. What did he decide to do? Now he has opted for surgery and conventional treatment and I hope it is not too late for him.

You show me now testimonials that have worked.

a reply to: Pardon?

You say that the Lisanti paper isn't valid as it uses an "unnatural" model (even though it's showing that this effect CAN occur).

It is not me saying that, it is stated in the paper I provided. It is not talking on this perticular paper but more targeting a couples of Lisanti et al. paper's on the same subject.

So, to add credence to your belief that ketones are the way, show some positive human trials, I mean, ketogenic diets as treatment for cancer has been around for years so surely there should be some robust data supporting this?

Even if this effect is known for long time it seem experiments on human have just began to happen, I strongly suspect that "the big industries" does not cooperate well with something that can be achieved just by dietetics and yield not patentable and lucrative products. I have papers on human experiment, I have posted them here countless of time but no one is interested, and these were done on small number of patients. It simply seem there is no momentum to push this area of research, even if it seem promising, go figure ...

About Lisanti, this guy is puzzling me. He seem to have lot of credential and credibility but he seem to be the sole proponent of his main hypothesis, the Reverse Warburg effect. When I read on this hypothesis, there are inconsistencies and contradictions, it seem to contradict everything on cell metabolism. I cannot believe this guys make such mistake, ex. he state everything is in reverse like the mitochondrion is fueling cancer cell when everything tell us that they are being deactivated.

And don't tell me the paper I presented are invalid because they have been done in mouse, simply because if you would have read the study you provided yourself, you would have seen that they were done in vitro ! To my understanding, a mouse experiment is more valuable than a closed glass petry dish ...

Maybe your problem is that you think Santa Clauss exist and all pharma industries have no interrest in making MONEY. Little news for you, marketting dept. will axe everything that is not making money, so research on unpatentable medecines have to be done by researcher having low interrest in money, no support from the mega industries (pharma) but only from public grant money, so there is very limited interrest from new graduates.

If you want me to provide additionnal papers, you will have to at least demonstrate the willingness to read them, not simply read the abstract but MAKE THE EFFORT TO UNDERSTAND THEM.

To this date, you have only demonstrated a hard stance to denigrate this avenue of research without even trying to understand the mechanism involved. Constantly looking for something to counter my arguments. What is your real goal here? Simply, like the rest of the ecosystem present in social medias, to ALWAYS have the last word and be right and win your arguments, or explore new avenue of research, break the status quo, and make thing go forward? Or maybe you work for a PR firm and have some agenda to push?

Anyway, I have no money to make by promoting ketogenic diet and it is very EVIDENT that no one is interested. So everyone, continue to swallow your patented pills to cure your illness and endure the multiple side effects and then swallow lots of other pills to cure side effects of first pill. Funny, I sound like a conspiracy buff trying to convert a bunch of CONFORMISTs...

a reply to: Agartha

read peterMcFly post and I have already "testified" that one person I know was healed by water fasting and nothing else. If you think that everybody is a liar that is your thing.

Also I don't get it why don't you apply that attitude with scientists?

We each want to see what we believe and not much else, that is why! So I don't want to bicker any more with you, I just want to help OP broaden the horizons with as many alternatives as possible and let her try it out in person if she wants.

Also fame is not important and should not even be considered a factor in decision. This is just to shallow if you decide something just becouse famous person said so...

originally posted by: UniFinity
Also I don't get it why don't you apply that attitude with scientists?

Evidence. Nothing less, nothing more. Words are not evidence. Controlled studies / tests/ trials give us evidence, it's nothig to do with 'believing'. And results need to be replicated by others before they are deemed to work.

Sometimes complementary medicine affect mainstream meds (St John's Wort for example), hence you need to be very careful with what you suggest people to do as you may have just given them a death sentence.

a reply to: UniFinity

Humans and animals have so many things in common and I m not afraid to say we are like the animals or even we are animals.

We are mammals, all mammals need to eat and breath. We all have heart, lungs, legs, arms, torso, do I need to continue...

So what works on mice body will most probably work on human body. Yes sometimes it don't work and yes sometimes they say it is not working because it would hurt their profit or they just can't extract profit.

If you don't know that then my friend you are blind and it is a time to open your eyes. Corporations don't care about curing cancer, they care about making money. So if cancer gives them more money than healing cancer guess what they will choose.

I m 100%. Sure this corporation s have cure ready.

a reply to: Agartha

you see I don't think like you about suggestions. For me any suggestion is great, it only gives way to new opportunities. good or bad.

But we make our own decisions. You cannot make the horse drink the water, you can only bring it to the water. So blaming others for any decision I make is wrong.

And also do you think that scientist are honest? evidence is honest? are they not people, are they not working under bosses and sometimes strict conditions? do they not lie and misplace or turn their evidence around?

it happened many times in science or other areas and it will so, to think that this is not happening now with big pharma is naive. It is all about the money. unfortunately.

That is why testimonials of healed people with nothing to gain may be true in my opinion. But everyone has to decide for himself.

a reply to: saadad

yes, that is true what you say, I really get you. But I look at it from different standpoint.

mice can't think like us and cannot show or feel emotions like us. We only have the physical properties somehow the same. But I think that diseases are more than that, so naturally with additional factors the results or effect of solution which works in mice can be sometimes almost useless to us or vice versa.

read about the placebo effect. Amazing stuff.

a reply to: UniFinity

Yea I agree with you. But because of placebo effect and because we can think and are more conscious we can get illnes because of that but mouse can't since he is not on this level, that why some types of cancer you don't see at animals and yes I agree that because of that it is possible some cures that work on mice will not work on humans.

This is kinda representative of the dr who wants to put a curse on you and give you the cancer curse and then kill you with chemo and radiation, vs. the informed select few who don't buy into msm. See you got little boogieman in the ring which is like "your dr" and then big boogieman ouside who's like "big pharma". Both wanting to get you!

a reply to: meremortal
Just to stick a fork in it and declare it done, there is a cruel irony at play in this discussion. As much as folks can declare most vehemently how cancer ought to be treated, the truth is that unless and until one is faced with making a personal decision for themselves or a close loved one, they have no idea what route they will take. Anything else is just noise.

That being said...for what it's worth, I respect an individual's right to make an educated decision based upon their own circumstances, and wish them all the best in such a difficult journey.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Yes everyone need to choose for them self. People now grab chemo because steve job died since he didn't take it. But what if he survived... How bad advertising will that be to chemotherapy.

But whatever happened with him does not concern you, you are you and make the choice on your own. I'm not saying chemo is bad but I m saying how big corporation that produce chemo think. If you think they are sad because you got cancer you are delusional. They are most probably guilty for your cancer in first hand. By giving you bad vaccines when you were young, promoting the unhealthy lifestyle or just selling you pills with crap.

Last March my wife was diagnosed with stage 4 breast and liver cancer. HER+. A quick death sentence 10 years ago.

She immediately changed her diet to exclude all processed foods, dairy (exception is whole milk yogurt), sugar (only eats sugar from fruits and veggies), and grains and potatoes (exception sweet potatoes and purple rice). We switched to free range chicken and grass fed beef for our meat. We also eat much turmeric, ginger and garlic from the whole root (could be key). Only use olive and coconut oil. Basically we EAT nothing on the top half of the glycemic index (how fast food turns to sugar in the body). She began eating this way as soon as there was a possible diagnosis. It was a couple of months before all was confirmed, etc. She also went for acupuncture a half dozen times when Chemo started. Acupuncturist had never seen body energy so high from a chemo patient (she was very low energy before the diet change).

Before she ever started chemo there was significant reduction in the tumor size (we could see and feel the lump in the breast melt away). Her scan after 3 chemo's showed she was completely cancer free. The doctor had never seen such quick results or such a healthy blood profile after 3 chemos. We fully believe the diet is mostly responsible, but also think the Chemo drugs (Taxol, Perjeta, Herceptin) gave a big assist. She struggled a bit during chemo but no where near what was expected. She was able to continue working for the most part (we work from home). Her main complaints from chemo were that she lost her hair and had some skin issues.

DUE to spread of the cancer to the liver there was no surgery before chemo. The plan was to do surgery and radiation after the chemo (I think no one should have surgery before chemo, sorry OP). However given her progress and complete recovery, her oncologists recommenced that she not do surgery or radiation. She still has to Chemo every 3 weeks with perjeta and herception which will last for several years. These drugs specifically target the HER2 cells and keep them multiplying out of control as all cancer cells do. Not much in the way of feeling bad with these two drugs.

So my advice to everyone with cancer is to get the treatments. You also have to have a solid diet as we have had. Also exercise. Between them all, my wife's cancer had no chance and there is a good chance that yours will have little chance as well.

originally posted by: sligtlyskeptical
So my advice to everyone with cancer is to get the treatments. You also have to have a solid diet as we have had. Also exercise. Between them all, my wife's cancer had no chance and there is a good chance that yours will have little chance as well.

I was fortunate to have an oncologist who had no problem with trying diet/alternative measures on the side during my treatment. "Couldn't hurt" he said. I felt it was important to check to make sure there were no contraindications that I wasn't aware of.

Congrats on your wife's process. One thing...you're allowed sweet potatoes? Lucky! My wife has adopted the same diet and pretty much wiped out her fibromyalgia. It ain't easy, but the results are pretty apparent. In your case, it makes perfect sense that if you are going to selectively poison a disease, that there not be other contaminnents in play.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Thanks. Glad you made it through as well.

Her oncologist didn't recommend any particular diet. However, we feel she is starting to trend that way. All the other patients where we get chemo were told to eat whatever they wanted. Their progress hasn't been anywhere near my wife's so that makes us pretty certain that the diet was very important in her cure. Just eating the food has made us pretty buff as well, without that much exercise. I think it due to the healthy fats, olive oil, coconut oil and the fats in the grass fed beef. Much different than grain fed beef, look it up.

The hardest part of our diet was the no dairy and for me getting off the Coca-Cola. The rest has been pretty easy as you can make magnificent meals using only whole foods and healthy spices and oils. They do take time though and our meat choices are expensive. We found that Target is among the best places to buy the meat. Their house brand is the best grass-fed on the market and they often mark it way down close to expiration, making it cheaper than regular grocery store meat. Target also has the Bare chicken brand for whole chickens and wings. i don't think it is free range but nothing added as far as hormones, antibiotics, etc. It has been our chicken of choice. We also eat lots of nuts but no peanuts. Produce all comes from local farmer markets. In Florida so we are lucky on that count.

We also eat plenty of eggs, cage free. We use Ghee as butter. If we want something baked we use a nut flour or vegetable starch and maple syrup or honey to sweeten. We don't eat much of this as thankfully it not as good as wheat flour baked goods.

First 3 months though, there was no dairy of any kind, or rice, or honey, syrup. It wasn't until she got NED that we slowly added these back.

I don't come around here much but if anyone wants to send me a private message i would be happy to be more specific.

originally posted by: sligtlyskeptical
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
Her oncologist didn't recommend any particular diet. However, we feel she is starting to trend that way. All the other patients where we get chemo were told to eat whatever they wanted. Their progress hasn't been anywhere near my wife's so that makes us pretty certain that the diet was very important in her cure. Just eating the food has made us pretty buff as well, without that much exercise. I think it due to the healthy fats, olive oil, coconut oil and the fats in the grass fed beef. Much different than grain fed beef, look it up.

Not to derail the thread, but it makes sense that diet matters. My wife has been seeing a naturopath, and even her nurse/practitioner is so impressed with the results (I didn't quit booze so the weight loss is not so dramatic...and is a side effect of the protocol), that she has been attending the naturopath herself. All this goes to say that my wife has been told that wild game is also on the 'good' list as it has not been raised with grains, GMOs or antibiotics.

Which explains why I, a non-hunter, now have moose, venison and bear in my freezer. Sometimes that's easier to come by than grass fed beef.

a reply to: meremortal

If you have cancer you owe it to yourself to YouTube baking soda molasses prostate guy

10 min vid

Well worth it.

originally posted by: PeterMcFly
a reply to: Pardon?

You say that the Lisanti paper isn't valid as it uses an "unnatural" model (even though it's showing that this effect CAN occur).

It is not me saying that, it is stated in the paper I provided. It is not talking on this perticular paper but more targeting a couples of Lisanti et al. paper's on the same subject.

So, to add credence to your belief that ketones are the way, show some positive human trials, I mean, ketogenic diets as treatment for cancer has been around for years so surely there should be some robust data supporting this?

Even if this effect is known for long time it seem experiments on human have just began to happen, I strongly suspect that "the big industries" does not cooperate well with something that can be achieved just by dietetics and yield not patentable and lucrative products. I have papers on human experiment, I have posted them here countless of time but no one is interested, and these were done on small number of patients. It simply seem there is no momentum to push this area of research, even if it seem promising, go figure ...

About Lisanti, this guy is puzzling me. He seem to have lot of credential and credibility but he seem to be the sole proponent of his main hypothesis, the Reverse Warburg effect. When I read on this hypothesis, there are inconsistencies and contradictions, it seem to contradict everything on cell metabolism. I cannot believe this guys make such mistake, ex. he state everything is in reverse like the mitochondrion is fueling cancer cell when everything tell us that they are being deactivated.

And don't tell me the paper I presented are invalid because they have been done in mouse, simply because if you would have read the study you provided yourself, you would have seen that they were done in vitro ! To my understanding, a mouse experiment is more valuable than a closed glass petry dish ...

Maybe your problem is that you think Santa Clauss exist and all pharma industries have no interrest in making MONEY. Little news for you, marketting dept. will axe everything that is not making money, so research on unpatentable medecines have to be done by researcher having low interrest in money, no support from the mega industries (pharma) but only from public grant money, so there is very limited interrest from new graduates.

If you want me to provide additionnal papers, you will have to at least demonstrate the willingness to read them, not simply read the abstract but MAKE THE EFFORT TO UNDERSTAND THEM.

To this date, you have only demonstrated a hard stance to denigrate this avenue of research without even trying to understand the mechanism involved. Constantly looking for something to counter my arguments. What is your real goal here? Simply, like the rest of the ecosystem present in social medias, to ALWAYS have the last word and be right and win your arguments, or explore new avenue of research, break the status quo, and make thing go forward? Or maybe you work for a PR firm and have some agenda to push?

Anyway, I have no money to make by promoting ketogenic diet and it is very EVIDENT that no one is interested. So everyone, continue to swallow your patented pills to cure your illness and endure the multiple side effects and then swallow lots of other pills to cure side effects of first pill. Funny, I sound like a conspiracy buff trying to convert a bunch of CONFORMISTs...

Yes the study I showed was in vitro but your study was still on mice.
Difference is I wasn't suggesting a potential therapy for cancer in humans, which was what you were insinuating.

So, lots of words but no evidence that it works in humans.
Get to the back of the queue...Next.

originally posted by: VanGcouverite
a reply to: meremortal

If you have cancer you owe it to yourself to YouTube baking soda molasses prostate guy

10 min vid

Well worth it.

It doesn't work.
Would you like to know why it doesn't work?

The ketogenic diet and hyperbaric oxygen therapy prolong survival in mice with systemic metastatic cancer www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Ketone supplementation decreases tumor cell viability and prolongs survival of mice with metastatic cancer www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Non-Toxic Metabolic Management of Metastatic Cancer in VM Mice: Novel Combination of Ketogenic Diet, Ketone Supplementation, and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

There was a pilot study in 10 advanced cancer patients. The patients did a very low-carb, ketogenic diet for 28 days. According to a PET scan, 4 of the patients continued to have progressive disease, while 5 remained stable and 1 had a partial remission. It could be said that the patients who had the best metabolic response to the diet (that is, lowest insulin and highest ketone levels) saw the most improvement www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

In 1995, a case report of two girls with nonresectable brain cancer (anaplastic astrocytoma stage IV, and cerebellar astrocytoma stage III) was published. After 7 days on a ketogenic diet, blood glucose levels decreased and glucose uptake at tumor site decreased by 21,8%. One of the girls had significant improvement in symptoms and her disease did not progress for the next 12 months, the other was lost to follow up www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... One of the patients remains alive at this time (Dr Linda Nebeling MD, personal communication with Prof. Tomas Seyfried PhD)

Rapid Response of Glioblastoma Multiforme with the Ketogenic Diet: A Case Report www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

In a pilot trial of 16 advanced-stage cancer patients, a ketogenic diet did improve quality of life and stopped the progression of cancer for the 5 patients who completed the 12 week study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Also I wonder if this diet would help certain immunotherapies www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... and/or drugs work better?. www.calithera.com... www.cornerstonepharma.com...

a reply to: jondoeuk

Thanks for the papers. A couples were not in my folders.

Also I wonder if this diet would help certain immunotherapies

Don't know but I have a person here with MS, and that person got her chronic pain completely disappear by going ketogenic. The slightest qty of carbs she eat, the pain come back...

FYI we control level of ketone bodies in blood.

I also have a doubt that presence of high level of glucose and fructose (especially) induce production of advanced glycation end products (AGEs).