Hypocritical Views on Individual Accountability

Imagine you're a university student in a library, minding your own business when a group of protesters bursts through the doors. One of those protesters marches up to you and screams insults in your face, angrily demanding that you jump to your feet and denounce all of the misdeeds of all of the members of your "race" or be branded an accomplice.

Would you be bewildered? Would you recoil in horror? Would you protest your innocence? After all, you didn't do anything. You haven't assaulted anyone, discriminated against anyone, denied anyone their rights, deliberately offended anyone or in any way promoted, participated in or advocated racism. Perhaps just the opposite. Would you say, "I'm not responsible for this. This isn't fair! You can't blame me for the bad things other people have done simply because we're members of the same race!"

What if you complied only to find that simply denouncing the misdeeds of others wasn't enough? What if even more angry, shouting people surrounded you and calling into question your sincerity, not content with forcing you to speak out under duress and the implicit threat of violence, insisted that you prove that you're not "like the rest of them?" What if the only proof these irrational people would accept was for you to travel far from your home, arm yourself and risk your very life to prove something you have no obligation to prove to people you have no obligation to prove anything to?

A quick glance at any of the current threads on ATS relating to the takeover of the Dartmouth library will demonstrate that in fact, most if not all members would be justifiably angry. Page after page of passionate outpourings of outrage. Even to a person like me who strongly believes that racial inequality is a reality and a serious issue that must be addressed by our society as a whole, this undeserved, misplaced aggression (if true) is horrifying and I have absolutely not compunctions about denouncing this type of behavior whatsoever.

The purpose of this rant isn't simply to denounce the abhorrent behavior of some among the Darthmouth student protesters or even to lament that according to the principle source, the majority of individuals who weren't shouting racist remarks in the faces of other students were upstaged by the actions a few.

No. I have an ulterior motive my friends.

I use the above example because I know it's something that most of you will have recently read about and considered and because many of you will likely have not found it difficult to empathize with the library bystanders. Hold onto those emotions for a moment; keep in mind the sense of injustice and lack of fairness you feel and the outrage these feelings provoke.

Then consider the disgusting things that are being said by others and by some of you — in your daily lives, in the news, on social media and even in threads on ATS — to and about the vast majority of Muslims who have absolutely no direct involvement in terrorism, no connection to extremism and are not obligated to prove anything to any of you let alone to "go to Syria and fight ISIS."

I have seen some truly sickening comments recently, including some made to Muslim members of ATS in just the last couple of hours, that have me shaking my head in anger, frustration and disbelief. To those of you demanding that individuals be accountable for the horrible actions of a few despite your own completely contrary notions of your own accountability when it comes to the actions of people to which others have associated you — SHAME ON YOU, YOU HYPOCRITES.

So are you saying that the radical BLM movement is just as wrong as the
radical Anti Syrian imagination movement?
Or are you saying that as long as
your respectful its ok to have a different opinion in either case?

Personal responsibility seems to only work for a select few.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Well said, both sides are foaming at the mouth with hate, based only on a persons race or religion, not on individual character.

I've met a lot of great people in my life, because I don't look at anyone as part of a collective.

Respect me and I'll respect you. Pretty simple.

a reply to: nfflhome

He's saying that demanding that Muslims speak up again Muslim extremism is terrible rhetoric and an unfair demand to make of moderate Muslims. He is doing this by using an analogy to the Dartmouth incident to drive home how it would feel if the tables were turned and someone was demanding YOU account for the terrible actions of other people in the same demographic as you.

a reply to: theantediluvian

The fallacy of hasty generalization is enough to discredit the anti-muslim and BLM rhetoric. I wish it wasn't necessary to appeal to the emotions and draw false analogies to get people to listen, but it seems it might be the only thing that might have any effect.

You know ... For some reason, this whole refugee thing has put me in mind of one of the more gut wrenching parts of the book WWZ. Maybe some of you have read it?

It's the part where the Russians are trying hard to preserve their country. They have a flow of panicking refugees flowing over a bridge ahead of the zombies, and some soldiers in a tank hear that an air strike in coming. What happens just blew me away when I read it the first time. You have frightened, panicked innocent people flooding over this bridge, and the jets drop nerve gas on them. They massacre them.

It's horrific. They all die ... except the ones who don't.

See. The Russians had no time to vet them, to sort who was infected and who wasn't. So in a ruthless, brutal move, they gassed them to separate them in the only sure way to preserve the still healthy ones who had been vetted up ahead.

Anyhow ... No, I am in no way advocating we gas anyone. But my point is that the refugee flood is working against us in a similar way. We have mostly innocent, panicking people fleeing the area too quickly to be really processed and vetted. We can't tell who's good and who's not, and those who do know can't/won't turn in friends, neighbors, family.

So until something changes, that's sort of where we are. And it makes people really angry and frustrated. It doesn't excuse anyone, but I understand the impulse.

It is quite obvious that the mob mentality is operating quite strongly in both instances. There is troubling rhetoric on both sides which should make any empathetic person cringe.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Imagine you're a university student in a library, minding your own business when a group of protesters bursts through the doors. One of those protesters marches up to you and screams insults in your face, angrily demanding that you jump to your feet and denounce all of the misdeeds of all of the members of your "race" or be branded an accomplice.

Imagine going to a show after saving up for it for weeks, and working your butt off, just to have a good time. Suddenly you hear gunfire all around you and you find yourself being pushed along to your possible death.

"Would you be bewildered? Would you recoil in horror? Would you protest your innocence? After all, you didn't do anything. You haven't assaulted anyone, discriminated against anyone, denied anyone their rights, deliberately offended anyone or in any way promoted, participated in or advocated racism. Perhaps just the opposite. Would you say, "I'm not responsible for this. This isn't fair! You can't blame me for the bad things other people have done simply because we're members of the same race!" "

Imagine sitting at the kitchen table with your family, eating a humble meal of rice, beans and cornbread, when suddenly your door is kicked in. There is a cross burning in your yard, and you are being dragged to a tree to be hanged.

"Would you be bewildered? Would you recoil in horror? Would you protest your innocence? After all, you didn't do anything. You haven't assaulted anyone, discriminated against anyone, denied anyone their rights, deliberately offended anyone or in any way promoted, participated in or advocated racism. Perhaps just the opposite. Would you say, "I'm not responsible for this. This isn't fair! You can't blame me for the bad things other people have done simply because we're members of the same race!" "

Do I need to go any further? We live in a world where there are a lot of bad people doing a lot of bad things.

"Then consider the disgusting things that are being said by others and by some of you — in your daily lives, in the news, on social media and even in threads on ATS. "

So I ask you how is this any different?

It is not. It is just the popular flavor of the day to suddenly call people out as hypocrites and stupid, but it looks like you are well on your way to receiving 200+ flags for this supportive rant. So it must be working for some here on ATS.

Nmd

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Do I need to go any further? We live in a world where there are a lot of bad people doing a lot of bad things.

"Then consider the disgusting things that are being said by others and by some of you — in your daily lives, in the news, on social media and even in threads on ATS. "

So I ask you how is this any different?

It is not. It is just the popular flavor of the day to suddenly call people out as hypocrites and stupid, but it looks like you are well on your way to receiving 200+ flags for this supportive rant. So it must be working for some here on ATS.

There are a lot of bad people doing bad things at any given moment. That is completely true. What's different in this case is the volume and extreme vitriol of the rhetoric in response to it. Similar reactions in the recent past have had grave consequences. I don't go in for PC notions about all opinions being equally valid or worthy of consideration. Some opinions are inherently uncivil. I'm not a politician or school administrator forced to coddle people who should know better or ignore their hypocrisy when they say appalling things. I authored this rant after reading some particularly vicious comments directed at members of ATS in a thread here on ATS. If the people who posted those comments read this rant and they are in fact shamed by it, good. If more people read this and question their own thinking on the topic, even better.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: nfflhome

He's saying that demanding that Muslims speak up again Muslim extremism is terrible rhetoric and an unfair demand to make of moderate Muslims. He is doing this by using an analogy to the Dartmouth incident to drive home how it would feel if the tables were turned and someone was demanding YOU account for the terrible actions of other people in the same demographic as you.

Exactly. I couldn't have articulated it any more succinctly.

a reply to: ketsuko

See. The Russians had no time to vet them, to sort who was infected and who wasn't. So in a ruthless, brutal move, they gassed them to separate them in the only sure way to preserve the still healthy ones who had been vetted up ahead.

Anyhow ... No, I am in no way advocating we gas anyone. But my point is that the refugee flood is working against us in a similar way. We have mostly innocent, panicking people fleeing the area too quickly to be really processed and vetted. We can't tell who's good and who's not, and those who do know can't/won't turn in friends, neighbors, family.

This raises an interesting point. Given the level of abject hysteria, you'd think that the entire Western world is currently facing an impending calamity on the scale of a zombie invasion. I'm in no way trying to dismiss very legitimate security concerns but we can help and limit the security risks. It's a matter of logistics and I assure you as something of a logistician, there's a way if we want there to be. Reacting upon irrational fear only ever contributes to worsening the situation.

a reply to: theantediluvian

What's different in this case is the volume and extreme vitriol of the rhetoric in response to it.

Do you honestly believe that the " volume and extreme vitriol of the rhetoric" is any worse with this group then with any other?

In "some" cases it may be equal to, but by no means is it any worse than what has been said and even condoned or left unchallenged, by the powers that be, right here on ATS.

I don't think it is right that any person or group, should be unfairly attacked or mistreated in anyway. I just think it is wrong that suddenly it is being addressed as a problem when in it is support of only one particular group.

Personally I don't think this post, and the so many others that has popped up on ATS, in defense of a single group is having the effect you may have been hoping for. In fact if there was dissension before, I think these accusatory, scolding, and judgmental, rants don't help, they make it worse.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Do you honestly believe that the " volume and extreme vitriol of the rhetoric" is any worse with this group then with any other?

I honestly do on both accounts. Not the worst its ever been, but in my opinion, currently the worst by a margin.

I don't think it is right that any person or group, should be unfairly attacked or mistreated in anyway. I just think it is wrong that suddenly it is being addressed as a problem when in it is support of only one particular group.

I agree wholeheartedly that it's equally wrong regardless of the group. In fact, that's essentially what I was trying to demonstrate in my rant.

Personally I don't think this post, and the so many others that has popped up on ATS, in defense of a single group is having the effect you may have been hoping for. In fact if there was dissension before, I think these accusatory, scolding, and judgmental, rants don't help, they make it worse.

Fair point but the counterpoint to that is that unfairly attacking every Muslim in the world for the actions of a small percentage only makes it easier for extremists to grow their ranks.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Fair point but the counterpoint to that is that unfairly attacking every Muslim in the world for the actions of a small percentage only makes it easier for extremists to grow their ranks.

People keep saying that people are "attacking every Muslim in the world for the actions of small percentage", where is every Muslim in America, let alone the whole world, being attacked?

According to a fellow ATSer, that is an American Muslim,

There are more than 5 million Muslims in America right now (like me ). There are roughly 20,000 cities & towns in the US. That comes out to roughly 250 American Muslims for every city and town in America.

If everyone of these Muslims are being attacked, wouldn't you think we would be doing something other than having this conversation?

Look, I understand what you are saying, and what you are trying to do, but putting your arm around the blind man waking with his cane, and screaming for everyone to get out his way, while accusing them of being prejudiced and insensitive, because they didn't lay down a red carpet for him, is not going to gain you, or the blind man any favors.

I hear you, and we are going to have to agree to disagree on this tactic. You see a bunch of new terrorist in the making, and I see people who never had any animosity toward Muslims, becoming suspicious and less than inviting.

Nobody wins. So how does this help?

a reply to: theantediluvian

There is a small oversight in this post. Asking muslims to denounce extremists who are murdering innocent people is not the same as demanding a white person denounce things that happened 50-150 years ago. See, ISIS is using these people's religion (islam) as an excuse for these atrocities. When the KKK shows up and kills 130 people, let me know, I'll denounce them. But see, that's not happening, no one is killing blacks in the name of whiteness today. And if they are, by all means, I denounce them and their actions. In fact, if the KKK takes over texas and starts murdering innocent black people, I will go out of my way to denounce what they're doing. No one will have to ask me to do it.

Your post is nothing but false equivalency, and it's not really even close.

a reply to: Dfairlite

There is a small oversight in this post. Asking muslims to denounce extremists who are murdering innocent people is not the same as demanding a white person denounce things that happened 50-150 years ago.

Asking? Here's a link to the thread I was reading right before I authored this post.

Well thanks for the heads up! Now that I know racism ceased to exist 50 years ago, I can start ignoring it just like you! Just a few months ago, a nutjob walked into a church and shot 9 black people because of their race. What did you have to say about that?

Wow, so much BS it's going to be hard to get through it all.

First, I've not seen anyone deny that this was about race. Obviously this was a racist attack against black people. However, excuse us if we don't get all up in arms about it. Remember the black thug game knock out? Where they'd pick a random white person and try to knock them out in one hit? Where was your outrage about racism then?

Second, we are over the racism. I don't care if your black, white, brown, purple, or grey. Nor do 98% of americans. Racism, by any measure, is dead. You will have disturbed people who do racist things and this was absolutely one of those incidents. I hope the kid gets the death penalty. Not because he killed black people, not because he was racist, but because he killed 9 people.

Third, Islam teaches hatred. Islam teaches murder. Islam teaches terrorism. Islam is the root of the problem and there have been many, many incidents of islamic followers attacking people in the name of allah. I don't know if this kid was supposedly christian, but if he was, he wasn't living christianity. Conversely, the muslims attacking people were living islam. See the difference there?

Fourth, I already covered why his religion wasn't brought into it. We all k now he was heavily influenced by media and militia. Call it right wing if you'd like. But remember,the political spectrum isn't a line. It is a circle and the far left and far right are right next to each other on one side of the circle.

Fifth, Who are these "White right wing militias" you speak of? Please, explain. You say that we don't look at what is causing white men to commit terrorism and mass shootings, but we already know. In all of the other cases that come to mind, it was medications. It has nothing to do with fox news or other "right wing media" any more than it has to do with violent video games and movies.

Please stop with the sanctimonious BS and come back to earth.

Well gee, somebody 'killed blacks in the name of whiteness' right there. Your reaction? It sure as hell wasn't denouncing anything and why not? Well because 'the knockout game' of course! The you dismiss the terrorist as 'disturbed' asthough his actions couldn't possibly have been influenced by a extremist white supremacy ideology and go on a mini rant about Muslims. Nope. No denouncing at all. Plenty of BS though.

"but if he was, he wasn't living christianity. Conversely, the muslims attacking people were living islam."

Were Eric Rudolph or any of the other anti-abortion terrorists 'living christianity?' How about Larry McQuilliams when he was shooting up Austin in 2014? Nah, who am I kidding? There's are no right-wing extremists and certainly no right-wing extremist GROUPS, not in this country.