It's time to wake up!

originally posted by: Andy1144
Ofcourse it doesn't. But that's not the point. My point is tell me what you've experienced.

No. I know what I experienced and I don't have to verify it with you.

ETA: Besides verifying it with you means parroting what you believe about DE. I can't if I came to a different conclusion about it.

a reply to: daskakik

We will discuss the logic behind it. I need to know what you mean when you say those things when you say them for the sake of the discussion.

Because my conclusions might be right, maybe not. That's why we need to discuss it. But you seem to be talking about something else when you say DE. Everyone experiences DE and comes to different conclusions, that's normal. Self inquiry is different. What did you mean by SI?

originally posted by: Andy1144
We will discuss the logic behind it.

No we wont.

I need to know what you mean when you say those things when you say them for the sake of the discussion.

I mean the same thing you mean. What about that don't you understand?

Because my conclusions might be right, maybe not. That's why we need to discuss it. But you seem to be talking about something else when you say DE. Everyone experiences DE and comes to different conclusions, that's normal. Self inquiry is different. What did you mean by SI?

Whem I say SI I mean the same thing you mean.

a reply to: daskakik

No we wont.

This is why we are going in circles. You can't tell me what you mean by what you say.

I mean the same thing you mean.

I don't know that. Tell me what you specifically mean for the sake of the discussion. So I know what you mean.

originally posted by: Andy1144
This is why we are going in circles. You can't tell me what you mean by what you say.

Right, because you feel entitled to question me and I am not dancing to your tune.

I don't know that. Tell me what you specifically mean for the sake of the discussion. So I know what you mean.

No, you don't want to accept that.

How will me punching keys in the order you want change anything?

a reply to: daskakik

No, you don't want to accept that.

I can't know what you've experienced unless you tell me. How can I know differently? How do I know you aren't talking about somethign different?

Right, because you feel entitled to question me and I am not dancing to your tune.

It's for the sake of discussion. What you're saying is basically, that you don't wan't to discuss my points anymore.

originally posted by: Andy1144
I can't know what you've experienced unless you tell me. How can I know differently? How do I know you aren't talking about somethign different?

I already told you that I am talking about the same thing. What more do you need to know? What it means is exactly what the links you posted say it means.

I experienced that. Later in life I experienced something that challanged that.

It's for the sake of discussion. What you're saying is basically, that you don't wan't to discuss my points anymore.

I was never discussing your points.

a reply to: daskakik

I already told you that I am talking about the same thing. What more do you need to know? What it means is exactly what the links you posted say it means.

Well you need to get more specific then that, because it seems we are talking about different things.
So you did self inquiry? What questions did you ask?

I was never discussing your points.

You were arguing against it.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Well you need to get more specific then that, because it seems we are talking about different things.
So you did self inquiry? What questions did you ask?

I didn't ask any questions. I already told you that what I experienced was spntaneous. I ended up at the realization described in everything I have read about self inquiry.

You were arguing against it.

Not against it but against you opinion of it.

a reply to: daskakik

I didn't ask any questions. I already told you that what I experienced was spntaneous. I ended up at the realization described in everything I have read about self inquiry.

So the sense of self dropped. People can have '___' and have the same experience and after, have forget it completely. The experience of it can't stick unless you see the whole mechanism behind it.
People experience DE and the falling of the illusion every day. But none of it sticks because the experience is immediately assumed to be something else. That's why people come to different conclusions about the experience. But it is no more then unjustified personal opinion.

Not against it but against you opinion of it.

Opinion is fact if there is good evidence to support it. You decide whether my evidence is convincing or not but we can only do so if we discuss out points.

originally posted by: Andy1144
So the sense of self dropped...

That is not what I mean so, all of that is neither here nor there.

Opinion is fact if there is good evidence to support it.

Enough has been said about this.

a reply to: daskakik

That is not what I mean so, all of that is neither here nor there.

So we're not talking about the same things, I told you. I don't know what you mean by the second part.

originally posted by: Andy1144
So we're not talking about the same things, I told you.

We are talking about the same thing.

You described a single experience and then it's forgotten. That is not what I mean.

I don't know what you mean by the second part.

We have sgone around and around abiut "evidence". Why bring it up again?

a reply to: daskakik

That is not what I mean.

What did you mean?

We have sgone around and around abiut "evidence". Why bring it up again?

All our logic is based on some evidence that what we're saying is true and that's what we're discussing.

originally posted by: Andy1144
What did you mean?

The sticky kind.

All our logic is based on some evidence that what we're saying is true and that's what we're discussing.

Didn't we discuss this already?

a reply to: daskakik

The sticky kind.

Did you know what I meant by this for sure? How did you know your experience sticked? Even if the falling of the illusion is felt for many hours it can be forgotten and the experience dismissed as an assumption about what that experience was.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Did you know what I meant by this for sure? How did you know your experience sticked?

How do you know yours did?

a reply to: daskakik

Because it was seen that the mechanism of the self was an illusion and this realization sticked. It didn't dissapear as a memory, the experience was fresh in every moment.
The seeing was clear. Now this doesn't mean I forget that I am not my thoughts. I get caught up sometimes, so it hasn't sticked 100% but it's a process. The way I meant sticked, was that the mechanism that the self is an illusion is seen clearly. Many people have these experienced but dismiss it as something mysterious. I had the tools to know that it really was the sense self that fell away and the realizaton had major implications.

a reply to: Andy1144

It was rhetorical.

I was implying that if you could ascertain for yourself then, why would you question anyone else who says that they have done the same?

I also don't see how that is any different than what I had already said. Even the sticky part doesn't mean that people have not experienced it even if it is only in passing.

a reply to: daskakik

I meant sticking in two ways.

Even the sticky part is doesn't mean that people have not experienced it even if it is only in passing.

People have the experience of the self dropping but not see clearly the whole mechanism behind the illusion. There is a major difference.

I was implying that if you could ascertain for yourself then, why would you question anyone else who says that they have done the same?

Because I am still not sure if we're on the same page with what we're saying. That's why I ask you for more clarity.