Black/Urban English? Is the inability to speak correctly contributeing to unemployment?

a reply to: crazyewok

Here in the U.S.A. we have the same issue. I take public transportation and have first-hand experience of listening to people converse. I have heard African-Americans (not all of them), but most speak in "ghetto". I could not understand one sentence.
We also have Native Americans who do not use proper english as well. Then we have the wannabe "ghetto" whites and hispanics, who try to speak like the blacks. Then I'm seeing a trend in neck tattoos. Unfortunately, if you want to find a decent job or climb the corporate ladder, neck tattoos and poor grammar and lexicon will prevent that.
Also attire. Several years ago, I went to a job interview dressed in suit and tie. The interviewer was kind of surprised that I "suited up". She indicated that everyone came in under-dressed for job interviews.

a reply to: Kratos40

I've seen this one too. When I was learning the ropes to apply for jobs, it was that you needed a proper blazer and business skirt for it.

These days, you need to wear any combination of office casual more or less to apply, and I've seen some who wear less than that. Since my husband does his own interviews at a Fortune 500, I ask his advice on what to wear for most of my interviews. He would know what a solid multi-national would expect to see. Then I try to dress up a bit from there.

As for the bus thing, as I said earlier, it isn't that people speak their own dialects in their own company so much as it is the inability to speak the proper dialect for the situation. I talk "country" when I'm with my family, but I would never talk that way at work or in an interview.

a reply to: Kratos40

The under dressing to interviews is not solely a U.S thing. I went for an interview a couple of years ago and after I got the job my boss told me that I was the only one who had suited up for the interview.
I understand going in business attire to an interview is ok but if you are going to get the job, you want to be the one who stands out from the rest and wearing a suit is often the way to do it.

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree, speaking in a local dialect/language is ok in that setting but you need to do more if you want to be seen as a professional.
I have a thick local dialect but I have to do presentations on teleconferencing to people in the U.S and they need to be able to understand what I am talking about, so I speak slower and use proper diction.
It's the same as my african and eastern european colleagues and they manage without issue because they know that it's required when you are dealing with people across different countries and dialects.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: odzeandennz

Nothing irrational about it. It is a social skill to recognize what your social environs are and modify your behavior and speech appropriately.

If you cannot recognize that no one in a business office speaks street lingo before you use it in your application for that job, then you already have one strike against you.

so its rational to throw applications away based on the way someone pronounce some words...

why not just then filter potential applicants based on names, if you think the names sounds like they might speak slang just chuck them out... even better, based on they're background or likelihood ethnicity may influence the way they speak just dont even bother with them.

If someone is QUALIFIED for a position, but my determination is based on race, creed, sexual orientation, or 'slang' im in the wrong; i think there is a law against that.

I wish one of the applicants is an ATS member and somehow connected the dots...

I wont harp on this issue much more. it seems like there may have been potential employees that have been passed on because of the employer's personal issues with 'X', not because they werent qualified. unless i misread the whole thing...maybe im wrong here...

a reply to: odzeandennz

You aren't even paying attention.

If you can't understand the application, then what reason do you have to think any of your customers or clients would be able to either?

And if you get an application written with l33t or text speak in it, that isn't professional. do u unnerstan what I b sayin?

And to clarify, it isn't a racial thing. Dialects occur across different ethnic groups and different regions of different ethnic groups. There are some very white people who speak dialects of English that, if used on an application, would make them unemployable because no one would understand what they wrote and they could have otherwise normal, white looking names.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: odzeandennz

You: "hey Matt. you interviewed really well, but you will need to clean up the way you talk a bit. i was able to get the gist of what you were saying, but you were not clear. While you are working here do you think you' could lose the street slang for us (chuckle or laugh to ease tension) and by looking at your CV i see you are a great candidate for this position, i wouldnt want 'slangs' keeping you from getting the position"
Matt: "Sure, not a problem. its just a force of habit. I assure you, my vocabulary will change the minute i punch into work. thank you for the opportunity"

Hahaha! You are in dreamland if you really think the conversation would go as you suggest!

If someone is too uneducated or lazy to attend an interview and speak business English while attempting to gain a position which requires it then they lose out to someone who can.
You bleeding hearts lol, he is an employer, not a support worker, why the hell would you want to employ someone who fails to meet the basic criteria of the job?!

...and your snide line hoping the OP gets a well spoken thief as an employee says much about yourself.

not in dreamworld, I have done that plenty of time whilst supervising.
"hey 'X' can you not do 'X' the way you do. its unprofessional, against our core values, or offensive. or can you change the way you X"
Sorted. its not just language, it can be a different approach at addressing a superior on an email.
this should not be a determining factor to hire or fire someone when i can take a professional approach and sort out the problem.

Employer: "Our core values is one that we need to speak in a professional manner, is that something you can do?"
candidate: "Sure, why would i have a PROBLEM with adhering to professionalism"

i cant imagine a candidate saying no, i dont wat the job if i cant speak slangs then.

The OP didnt try anything to remedy his issues, just made assumptions about the candidates and chucked the applications.
again correct me if im wrong.

a reply to: odzeandennz

Yes, it is.

Corporate culture is what it is, and part of culture is the ability to speak and be spoken to in a manner that everyone understands.

Dress and behavior are also part of that as well as the ability to do that job.

For example, I could be the best editor ever, but if I refused to conform to the dress, behavior standards set by my place of employ and refused to communicate and write spoken English like I actually knew it ... they would never, ever find out because I would never have crossed the threshold as an employee.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: odzeandennz

You aren't even paying attention.

If you can't understand the application, then what reason do you have to think any of your customers or clients would be able to either?

And if you get an application written with l33t or text speak in it, that isn't professional. do u unnerstan what I b sayin?

And to clarify, it isn't a racial thing. Dialects occur across different ethnic groups and different regions of different ethnic groups. There are some very white people who speak dialects of English that, if used on an application, would make them unemployable because no one would understand what they wrote and they could have otherwise normal, white looking names.

you are the one not paying attention.

OP

I am binning around 8 out of 10 black applicants applications after speaking to them, not due to them being black, but there inability to string a coherent sentence together. In fact I have noticed this "urban" talk in some white candidates too, though not to the same extent, and resulting in equal binned applications.

a reply to: odzeandennz

[/yawn] Ah right, supervising yeah? Okay, that's different to deciding who you wish to employ.
I'm no social work supportive living life coach, and neither is the OP.
If you can't communicate effectively in business English then you'll get no work from me, I'll find someone who can.
Why are you apparently bleating about that?

a reply to: odzeandennz

The OP didnt try anything to remedy his issues, just made assumptions about the candidates and chucked the applications.
again correct me if im wrong.

You are speaking as someone who has no clue what the application process is even for.

Do you have any idea how many applicants you can get to even one position? And do you have any idea how many of those might appear to be qualified based solely on what they wrote?

There is a reason why you can make a decent living being hired to write resumes for people. It's because so many people are weeded out just like this. One tiny, but glaring mistake on your resume can get you chucked out of the pile. Using language wrong, and not improperly, but simply in a way that does not grab attention can get you chucked out of the pile.

Your resume is the only thing potential employers have to go on, so it better be A-1 spotless and perfect and darn near advertisement quality. The very last thing you want is for an employer to look at it and NOT understand it because you've used an obscure dialect or a load of slang on it. Heck, you don't even often want to use a risky format. That can be something that stands out, but it can also be something that gets you chucked if the employer doesn't like an unconventional person ...

I just don't think you get it at all. Or you haven't spent much time having to write and polish your own resume and done any research on the subject.

originally posted by: odzeandennz

If someone is QUALIFIED for a position, but my determination is based on race, creed, sexual orientation, or 'slang' im in the wrong; i think there is a law against that.

There is no law in the UK about denying a application to someone who speaks "slang" IE lacks communication skills.

Especially when communication skills are a vital and core part of the job.

In fact I have even given that as a reason to them.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: odzeandennz

Yes, it is.

Corporate culture is what it is, and part of culture is the ability to speak and be spoken to in a manner that everyone understands.

Dress and behavior are also part of that as well as the ability to do that job.

For example, I could be the best editor ever, but if I refused to conform to the dress, behavior standards set by my place of employ and refused to communicate and write spoken English like I actually knew it ... they would never, ever find out because I would never have crossed the threshold as an employee.

Maybe this is why in 2010 at the height of the recession I never lacked a job?

Because in a professional environment I could communicate and dress appropriately?

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: odzeandennz

If someone is QUALIFIED for a position, but my determination is based on race, creed, sexual orientation, or 'slang' im in the wrong; i think there is a law against that.

There is no law in the UK denying a application to someone who speaks "slang" IE lacks communication skills.

Especially when communication skills are a vital and core part of the job.

In fact I have even given that as a reason to them.

lack of comm skills is subjective. lack of professional communication skills isnt.

However, since you put forth professional comm skills are your core values and they didnt try to speak professionally (which you forgot to mention in the OP), then you were right to bin the applications.

any further argument is impasse.

originally posted by: odzeandennz

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: odzeandennz

If someone is QUALIFIED for a position, but my determination is based on race, creed, sexual orientation, or 'slang' im in the wrong; i think there is a law against that.

There is no law in the UK denying a application to someone who speaks "slang" IE lacks communication skills.

Especially when communication skills are a vital and core part of the job.

In fact I have even given that as a reason to them.

lack of comm skills is subjective.

No it is not.
I was born and grew up in Wales which is part of the UK. I learned both Welsh and English as a child in a #ty underfunded state school. When I'm in Wales I speak a mixture of Welsh and English and Wenglish dialect.
When I return to England I speak the official form of business English I was taught, and people understand me.

Understanding an official language of a country is NOT subjective, it is either correct or not.
The Poles and the Czechs easily understand that the same as me a Welshman who lives in England.
Quit the bleeding heart dude, it is lame.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yes, and speaking and understanding all those forms is different than speaking them with an accent which is also different.

My husband works with people from Latin America, India, China, the Philippines, Iran (Persian), Israel, Germany (different parts of it, they all have distinctly different accents), etc., but they all know how to speak professional or business English even with their accents.

a reply to: ketsuko

Accents are cool, I love them, and as soon as I open my mouth in England everyone knows I'm Welsh straight away!
My words are English dictionary though on ATS or in business, as taught, and even as I type this I imagine if you listened to me conveying the same message to my Mam through the medium of speech then you would go "Eh what?"

Appropriate language/diction/dialect in the appropriate place is all.
I totally agree with your perspective as a proof reader...too many bleeding hearts in this thread wishing to dumb down the English language.

a reply to: grainofsand

Yes and no on the dumbing down.

It's more like dumbing down decorum. I can cuss like a sailor, but I also learned and trained myself when and when not to do it. That's decorum, and the same rules govern when and when not to use a dialect or slang.

It's also a matter of courtesy.

Read any fantasy novel in the world, and odds are they refer to a "trade language" that all the merchants speak in order to do business with one another. In this case, English is the "trade language." No one forces you to learn it, but if you want to engage in commerce, it's a skill you should pick up.

If people can't understand one another, they can't conduct even basic business. Imagine a Cajun and one of your Welsh trying to conduct business without using a common dialect.

It's not specifically the black community, it's the uneducated community.

A lack of language skills and lack of ability to communicate steps from a lack of proper education.

A lot of kids today are growing up listening to rap music and hip hop, and communicating in text speak over social media. They think this is the correct way to communicate with each other.

Many university professors are saying that even straight A students are coming to university woefully unable to write and do math at a university level.

What's even more annoying is that we're spending more per child on education than at any time in history, and those children have more access to information than at any time in history, and our schools are putting out the first generation of kids EVER that will have lower IQs than their parents.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Imagine a Cajun and one of your Welsh trying to conduct business without using a common dialect.

Agreed.
It is why we use business English to meet each other half way.