A Hypothetical Question to Ask Yourself..

a reply to: Night Star

You have to know the difference between killing one living thing that has a nervous system and a brain that feels pain, can process suffering, is aware of itself, can process some degree of emotion... and a plant... which has nothing of the sort. Never has a potato jumped off my counter to avoid my knife.

Besides, it takes many more plants to feed all the animals that are being raised for meat than it does to just feed humans. So if you really want less plants to die, then you should just eat plants directly.

I am not a vegetarian. I do, however, have a problem with the way factory farmed animals are treated.
I very rarely buy meat at a grocery store.
I have no problem with pulling a chicken's head off to make dinner or giving a grass fed cow a bullet between the eyes.
I have no problem shooting wild game for food. I'm a pretty good shot and I do my best to make their passing is as quick and painless as possible.
I'd rather deal with karma than eat nothing but vegetables, which I do love by the way.

Yes, you could look at it like eating the egg of the tree as that's essentially what it is; a seed. However, back to the mango example, a mango falling off a tree naturally does zero harm to the tree. It's no where near at the same caliber of taking the life of another sentient being for food. a reply to: AmericanRealist

a reply to: sekerofknowlege

I don't know what planet you come from but my meat comes from the supermarket.

Yours Sincerely
Kim Kardashians and the Morans.



BTW - only a sadist kills by stabbing through the heart before skinning and eating the kill as it causes too much unnecessary trauma - you use a captive bolt pistol to the forehead.

I will give up meat when people stop voting for stoopid politicians........so in other words, not in this life time.

Thats my opinion on the matter and I will face my maker at the judgement throne without anyone else acting in my defense.

That's a good question. Hardcore raw vegans don't eat carrots as there philosophy includes not killing anything to eat, including plants. Me personally, I think there are degrees of consciousness and I would be able to sleep at night killing a plant to eat or even a fish before killing a cow. But that's just me. a reply to: NowWhat

Okay, I would like to ask for clarification on a certain point concerning intelligence and instinct.
Would anyone here, or preferably several people in this discussion, care to define their understanding of the distinction between instinct and self-awareness?

More power to you. And sorry, I'm not familiar with how to kill an animal to eat as it's something ive never done nor plan on doing in this lifetime, unless I'm in an extreme survival situation. I was just trying to set up a thought provoking argument. a reply to: Sublimecraft

Ears of corn can no longer hear,
Black eye peans can see no more,
After they have been mowed by a veggie hor
Have we ever thot to say NO MORE!

For the cow that moos,
You say boohoo,
For the chicken that clucks,
You say thats bad luck.

But when we are mean to beans,
and asparagus too,
we say stay still,
While I slice, dice, mash, and eat you.

When a green bean screams,
or a butternutt yells.
Do we just dig in,
and say what the hell?

Lets think about things,
on all levels now,
Shall we worship the veggies,
Or slaughter the cow

a reply to: sekerofknowlege

Agreed, but how exactly do you define sentience? Yes, all animals are capable of registering physical damage, and most do so as pain. But being sentient normally requires being self aware, or being capable of forethought beyond instinctual drive.

a reply to: sekerofknowlege

Dude, a raw food diet certainly includes carrots, that is if they are not cooked or processed, which are the main factors for a raw food diet. Additionally, a raw food diet is not necessarily vegan. It can be, but doesn't have to be. Uncooked or unprocessed meat, or animal by-products along the same lines are also considered to be 'raw'.

a reply to: pfishy


Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively. (source Wikipedia)
That's pretty much how I would describe it.

I have no problem killing the animals I eat. Why is this a problem?

a reply to: okrian

Ok, I understand what you are saying. But do you have any evidence that our stock animals are self-aware or capable of emotion? Or is it, possibly, that the common practice of anthropomorphizing animals has had any influence on your point of view? I'm not saying that there aren't animals that aren't self-aware or feel emotion. Gorillas, for instance, have been shown to exhibit a remarkable level of self-awareness. But that is drastically different from instinctual response. And yes, gorillas have been psychologically and biochemically proven to possess emotion (they release hormones, like oxytocin, at close to the same proportions and under the same stimuli that humans do).
But what about rabbits? Or squirrels? Or cows? I have seen no evidence that they are capable of anything resembling a similar level of cognitive processing.
I'm not trying to say there aren't moralistic reasons for not eating them, but trying to assign human-like characteristics to elicit sympathy is totally inappropriate is if isn't true.

I grew up around animals that were butchered for food. They were my friends, and I understood that they would end up on the dinner table. I have killed my share of chickens. I have looked sheep in the eye before they died.

I am against factory farms and the inhumane slaughtering practices they employ. If you want rage against the cruelty of of factory farms, I am on your side. But I will oppose you if you are against humane (no fear) killing as well. You can kill an animal in a humane way where it doesn't experience fear. In fact you can taste the difference. Fear ruins the taste of meat.

I do have dietary issues that cause me to need a larger percentage of an animal based diet than most people. For one I have celiacs. That limits my choices. I also have large platelet disease. That causes me to have a low blood volume in which I need to consume larger quantities of iron. Iron that has limited sources, because due to another issue I have, I only have a small portion of intact intestines in which to absorb nutrients, therefore I have to eliminate almost all fiber so that my body retains food longer giving me more time to be able to absorb nutrients.

I am allowed to eat berries and reduced amounts of low fiber veggies, but no apples, no rice or potatoes, no celery. The bulk of my diet is supposed to come from animal products. Impossible to stick to due to cost. So what would you suggest I do.

a reply to: pfishy

I'm not sure how much overlap 'instinct' and 'self awareness' has. Almost all animals possess instinct. And just because some animals aren't 'self aware' that doesn't mean they don't feel pain and suffering. In some experiments 'self aware' means that the animal can recognize itself in the mirror. This is actually a very limited number of animals. And then the number of animals that are aware that they themselves will die is also fairly fractional.

But I really don't see what any of that has to do with this subject. Nor do I see how trying to boil it down to the definition 'sentient being' has anything to do with it. Just grasping at straws.

Again, the difference between 'alive' plants and 'alive' animals (I can't believe this intellectually ridiculous argument is even being discussed) is that one feels pain, has a nervous system, can process suffering, can process some degree of emotion, and uses these inclinations to avoid pain and death, and in many cases, will put up a fight (or flight).

originally posted by: corvuscorrax
I always have to chuckle at those who champion the rights of animals when we don't even take care of each other properly. I guess some people find it easier to sympathize with a cow than another persons plight.

I always have to chuckle when someone says something like that. There are countless reasonable causes out there, some of which pertain to "animals rights" (for lack of a better term). Everybody has their "thing" that they care about and champion.

For the moment, based on your comment, lets forget about animals and focus just on people. What, exactly, would you have everyone focus on?

Autism? Child abuse? Abuse of children with autism?

Drug addiction? Homelessness? Homelessness caused in part by drug addiction?

Elder abuse? Underfunded elder care facilities? Elder abuse as a result of underfunded elder care facilities?

It's a very big world we live in. While of course we have to take care (or at least SHOULD take care) of each other, there are other issues out there that a civilized society should (in my opinion) be focused on.

As I mentioned earlier... There are so many issues that we, as a society wrestle with. Some people can focus on people, some can focus on pollution, some can focus on medicine, some can focus on education and yes, in fact, some people can focus on how we, as stewards of this blue marble, treat animals.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I have no problem killing the animals I eat. Why is this a problem?

To me, personally, it is not a problem.

My concerns are the horrible conditions that the factory-farm-animals live and die in.

(Before you call me out on it.... I have previously indicated I am, indeed, a hypocrite in many ways).

a reply to: okrian

Again, I'm merely pointing out the flaws of 'humanizing' common stock animals to elicit an emotional response. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an emotional response to knowing that you're eating an animal. Just that trying to assign familiar characteristics to them to garner sympathy, that aren't necessarily characteristics they actually have, is not a realistic part of a logical discussion.

a reply to: pfishy

I guess it doesn't really matter to me. In no way do I give animals more credit emotionally than they are due. I didn't watch Charlotte's Web as a kid and think "man, pigs really have a lot to say inside" (although they are smarter than most people are aware). I think that the degrees of self awareness and the ways that animals process the world is pretty fascinating. But I don't need to assign emotion to an animal in order to know that it feels, pain, suffering, etc.

a reply to: eluryh22

Why are you so seemingly willing to assume that people are only capable of a limited set of 'causes'?