Can US soldiers (even US citizens) still imagine they're on the 'good side'?

a reply to: CTRTCTRT

You're condemning the US military of child rape because of a few anecdotal instances.

If you want to know a poor argument, yours is one.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

I know you want to say the US military has a hand in these crimes, but how many US military personnel have raped little boys?

The rape is not the only crime, as you WELL know.. but its obvious that if you can PRETEND it is, you can minimise the criminal activity of US troops... who were helping Afghanis break Afghani law, and gave them access to rape room on US military bases...

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

You're condemning the US military of child rape because of a few anecdotal instances.

If you want to know a poor argument, yours is one.

IT's not a few anecdotal incidents... again, you're trying desperately to spin this away for some reason.. I've never seen someone so willing to try and protect such criminal behaviour...

well except for the US military protecting all those child rapists...

US military contractors were actually repeatedly busted hiring child prostitutes in Afghanistan as well...

But I'm sure you'll spin that away...

a reply to: CTRTCTRT

Are the US military Afghan law? Of course not. The policy is that these crimes are under Afghan jurisdiction, as you yourself point out.

According to the article, the US troops were doing nothing of the sort. In fact, it is the troops raising the issue, as you well know. Yet you say the troops are guilty, which is a fundamental load of nonsense.

a reply to: CTRTCTRT

You're condemning the entire US military, its troops, as guilty parties to child rape. You don't even have a case.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

You're condemning the entire US military, its troops, as guilty parties to child rape. You don't even have a case.

Accountability on chain command. These soldiers are as guilty as the ones who gave them these orders.
And those commands surely came from top positions, not some staff sergeant.
Yes, everything stinks in US military.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

You're condemning the entire US military, its troops, as guilty parties to child rape. You don't even have a case.

I am not condemning them all, just the ones guilty... unless you're saying everyone single Afghani rapes boys...?

Or were you only talking about guilty people as well... ?

Again, just doing anything you can to obscure and defend people that conspired with pedophiles break Afghani law and rape children on US military bases...

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

Are the US military Afghan law? Of course not. The policy is that these crimes are under Afghan jurisdiction, as you yourself point out.

According to the article, the US troops were doing nothing of the sort. In fact, it is the troops raising the issue, as you well know. Yet you say the troops are guilty, which is a fundamental load of nonsense.

No, and that's obviously not true...

Previously the pro-pedophile crowd on ATS said the US couldn't be responsible because it wasn't a crime in Afghanistan, and US troops had to follow Afghani law, now that THAT has been proven untrue, the argument has switched to, "the US can't prosecute Afghanis"...

Imagine a Afghan warlord brings a truckload of kids onto a military base and starts shooting them in the head in front of soldiers... you're saying the US couldn't do anything about that, legally...

No one anywhere buys that - but it's the corner you've backed yourself into... any port in a "defending US troops for helping pedophiles operate openly on US military bases" storm I guess...

Pretty sad though.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, while I didn't touch on that aspect of the good-ol'-boy network that does exist in some units and at some (usually male-dominated) Army posts, my experience is that this is the exception, not the norm, and while it does happen, it certainly doesn't happen as much as some people and some organizations would have you believe.

Please don't get me wrong--I would never defend a rapist, but there is also a double standard when it comes to rape that even my wife (who also was a paralegal-turned-court-reporter in the Army) feels very strongly about, and that's the ability for a drunk female to accuse a drunk male of rape, but it is never considered that neither really had the control of their mental faculties to consent either way.

There are quite a few examples where if both are drunk, it is assumed that the male is the only one who could have consented, and that's BS. I know that's a tangent that wasn't brought up in the OP or your reply, but it is yet another example of how "rape" really has myriad facets of provability and differing levels of mitigating circumstances that can lead to a conviction or even just an accusation of rape.

I'm not disregarding the Helmer account that you posted above, but without all of the details that I used to be privy to (photos, medical examination results, witness interviews, sworn statement, MP reports, CID investigation findings, etc.), I would hope that you can excuse my skepticism brought on by professional experience. When it comes to rape allegations, I must always approach the claim with the stance that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. I know that can find a rapist going free due to lack of evidence sometimes (I came across at least one of those instances that I can remember), but if you find yourself embracing all allegations as truth, you're willfully giving yourself a handicap that is often hard to overcome in these types of emotional cases.

Everyone and every organization and every nation has skeletons in their closet, but that doesn't mean that we must disavow any efforts put forth by any of them that may be an attempt to better some aspect of another person/organization/nation, simply because we all have some skeletons.

A rape isn't always a rape isn't always a rape: I put grown men who systematically and (apparently) culturally molest and rape children--especially male children--in an absolutely different rung of evil on the ladder of evil rapists.

a reply to: CTRTCTRT

originally posted by: CTRTCTRT

I am not condemning them all, just the ones guilty... unless you're saying everyone single Afghani rapes boys...?

Could have fooled me. Here, I’ll quote you.

“The rape is not the only crime, as you WELL know.. but its obvious that if you can PRETEND it is, you can minimise the criminal activity of US troops... who were helping Afghanis break Afghani law, and gave them access to rape room on US military bases... ”

“well except for the US military protecting all those child rapists... “

Was it not members of the US military who are raising these concerns despite your blanket statements?

Previously the pro-pedophile crowd on ATS said the US couldn't be responsible because it wasn't a crime in Afghanistan, and US troops had to follow Afghani law, now that THAT has been proven untrue, the argument has switched to, "the US can't prosecute Afghanis"...

“Pro-pedophile crowd?” That’s quite the charge. Of course, pretending someone is defending pedophilia is a good way to dismiss their arguments without reason. Instead you’re spewing utter nonsense. Your rhetoric, designed to appeal to the emotions, is tantamount to slander. Not to mention, people who imply their debate opponents are in bad company are usually found to be in bad company themselves.

Imagine a Afghan warlord brings a truckload of kids onto a military base and starts shooting them in the head in front of soldiers... you're saying the US couldn't do anything about that, legally...

Why don’t we look at the facts instead of your imagination, which also insinuates a section of this website is pro-pedophile. Obviously no military base on the planet is going to allow someone come in and start shooting anything.

Yes it appears sexual assault on children has occurred in US military bases by certain Afghans. Also, the perpetrators seem to have been recruited by the military itself.

Yes, the soldiers have been ordered to look the other way, likely due to the non-intervention policy espoused by the spokesman in the article.

Yes, Afghani warlords rape and assault children.

According to the article, US soldiers notified the Afghan authorities, where Afghans are subject to Afghani law, given that they are in Afghanistan.

Was your version of justice served? No.

Are the US forces contributing to child-rape? No.

Are the US forces “helping Afghani’s break Afghani law”? No.

Now tell me what you wish the US military to do. Do you want them to shoot the pedophiles on sight? Do you want them to break protocol and beat them? or do you want them to turn the accused in to the proper authorities? According to you, anything less than vigilante justice means they are “pedophile defenders” who help Afghans "break Afghani law".

It seems you're simply hell-bent on slandering members of the armed forces, and as you say, spinning the facts so that they magically align with your elevated heart-rate.

a reply to: zilebeliveunknown

Accountability on chain command. These soldiers are as guilty as the ones who gave them these orders.
And those commands surely came from top positions, not some staff sergeant.
Yes, everything stinks in US military.

You're a part of that chain too, friend. If you're American, they are securing the perpetuation of your lifestyle.

a reply to: Profusion

You bring up a very good point

I wouldn't be surprised if more people decide to betray the US government like Snowden did

Hmm this gives me an idea for a thread

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

originally posted by: CTRTCTRT

I am not condemning them all, just the ones guilty... unless you're saying everyone single Afghani rapes boys...?

Could have fooled me. Here, I’ll quote you.

“The rape is not the only crime, as you WELL know.. but its obvious that if you can PRETEND it is, you can minimise the criminal activity of US troops... who were helping Afghanis break Afghani law, and gave them access to rape room on US military bases... ”

“well except for the US military protecting all those child rapists... “

Was it not members of the US military who are raising these concerns despite your blanket statements?

Previously the pro-pedophile crowd on ATS said the US couldn't be responsible because it wasn't a crime in Afghanistan, and US troops had to follow Afghani law, now that THAT has been proven untrue, the argument has switched to, "the US can't prosecute Afghanis"...

“Pro-pedophile crowd?” That’s quite the charge. Of course, pretending someone is defending pedophilia is a good way to dismiss their arguments without reason. Instead you’re spewing utter nonsense. Your rhetoric, designed to appeal to the emotions, is tantamount to slander. Not to mention, people who imply their debate opponents are in bad company are usually found to be in bad company themselves.

Imagine a Afghan warlord brings a truckload of kids onto a military base and starts shooting them in the head in front of soldiers... you're saying the US couldn't do anything about that, legally...

Why don’t we look at the facts instead of your imagination, which also insinuates a section of this website is pro-pedophile. Obviously no military base on the planet is going to allow someone come in and start shooting anything.

Yes it appears sexual assault on children has occurred in US military bases by certain Afghans. Also, the perpetrators seem to have been recruited by the military itself.

Yes, the soldiers have been ordered to look the other way, likely due to the non-intervention policy espoused by the spokesman in the article.

Yes, Afghani warlords rape and assault children.

According to the article, US soldiers notified the Afghan authorities, where Afghans are subject to Afghani law, given that they are in Afghanistan.

Was your version of justice served? No.

Are the US forces contributing to child-rape? No.

Are the US forces “helping Afghani’s break Afghani law”? No.

Now tell me what you wish the US military to do. Do you want them to shoot the pedophiles on sight? Do you want them to break protocol and beat them? or do you want them to turn the accused in to the proper authorities? According to you, anything less than vigilante justice means they are “pedophile defenders” who help Afghans "break Afghani law".

It seems you're simply hell-bent on slandering members of the armed forces, and as you say, spinning the facts so that they magically align with your elevated heart-rate.

NO.

Of all the concerns raised, only two service men ever tried to stop it, as far as anyone knows, so no. The media has been talking about it for years though.

Anyone that thinks there's a valid excuse for protecting pedophiles is pro-pedophile in my book... I know you've got a LOT of excuses, and blow a lot of smoke to protect the image of the troops that stood by and let kids get raped on US bases, but I don't buy into any of them... no US troop would accept such an excuse it was their child being raped.. it's just cowardice... they don't want to get in trouble so they keep them mouths shut, and don't protest. Covering their own butts, and handing over kids to pedophiles on the base their sworn to protect.

You say that military bases won't let Afghani people shoot people on the base? Why not? In your version of reality US troops would have no say, that would be an Afghani problem...

Your nonsensical arguments fall apart with the slighted poke.

It's obvious too, because in your eyes:

- providing a place to rape children
- looking the other way while children were being raped
- working with Afghan authorities to cover up child rape
- continuing to work with pedophiles

...none of that meets your standard of, "contributing to child-rape," which is frankly mind boggling... if you did the same for a murderer you'd be charged with murder in most states, if you did that for a felon you'd be charged with conspiracy at the very least.

And even more bizarrely, you don't even think that hiring known pedophiles, giving them a space to rape children and then continuing to pay and work with them is, “helping Afghani’s break Afghani law”.

You're delusional, or you're so blinded by ideology that you can't be honest.

I don't know what it is, but thank god you're not my neighbour, because god knows what you'd think is ok to be doing in my neighbourhood.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: zilebeliveunknown

Accountability on chain command. These soldiers are as guilty as the ones who gave them these orders.
And those commands surely came from top positions, not some staff sergeant.
Yes, everything stinks in US military.

You're a part of that chain too, friend. If you're American, they are securing the perpetuation of your lifestyle.

this is almost more absurd than defending the other things you've defending... perpetuating a lifestyle.. hilarious...

it`s not the military it`s the politicians who ally us with this scum bag countries and groups who are the ones to blame.
this is just another example of why it`s always a bad idea to ally with people who`s principles and ideologies are significantly different than our own.

a reply to: CTRTCTRT

Yes instances of Afghanis raping boys is well-documented. It's a well-known fact. We agree on this issue. But your attempt to tie the US military to that crime, directly or indirectly, is borderline idiocy.

Your overly-emotional charge against is the US military en masse is:

- providing a place to rape children
- looking the other way while children were being raped
- working with Afghan authorities to cover up child rape
- continuing to work with pedophiles

I can only ask that you reveal your evidence.

a reply to: CTRTCTRT

this is almost more absurd than defending the other things you've defending... perpetuating a lifestyle.. hilarious...

What do you have to say about the peoples and cultures committing the crime? You have yet to mention anything about them, yet you imply I am defending pedophilia. Absurd is right...

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

this is almost more absurd than defending the other things you've defending... perpetuating a lifestyle.. hilarious...

What do you have to say about the peoples and cultures committing the crime? You have yet to mention anything about them, yet you imply I am defending pedophilia. Absurd is right...

Lol.

The US has done endlessly more evil than good, as far as foreign policy is concerned. It is responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in numerous countries and many of those by torture, including rape.

What would I say about a culture that committed THOSE crimes?

Is it the American culture that's to blame?

The problem with simple-minded racist and xenophobic narratives like yours is that they only hold up if you ignore what your own culture gets up to.

All crime and violence is wrong, but in the context of this THREAD - the thing you're posting on, which is about US soldier and citizens, I am not convinced that responsibility is abdicated, because the criminals were wearing a uniform with a specific flag on the shoulder, nor any of the other shifting defences or excuses.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: CTRTCTRT

Yes instances of Afghanis raping boys is well-documented. It's a well-known fact. We agree on this issue. But your attempt to tie the US military to that crime, directly or indirectly, is borderline idiocy.

Your overly-emotional charge against is the US military en masse is:

- providing a place to rape children
- looking the other way while children were being raped
- working with Afghan authorities to cover up child rape
- continuing to work with pedophiles

I can only ask that you reveal your evidence.

I never said en masse, but only in relation to the numerous service men who knew about this and stood by and did nothing... there is AMPLE evidence for that.

"The reason we weren't able to step in with these local rape cases was we didn't want to undermine the authority of the local government," Quinn said. "We were trying to build up the local government. Us acting after the local government fails to can certainly undermine their credibility."

The New York Times reported this week that U.S. soldiers and Marines in Afghanistan have been instructed not to intervene in the abuse of Afghan boys by U.S. allies, even in some cases in which it's taken place on military bases.

The Pentagon denies that telling soldiers to look the other way is official practice.

"We have never had a policy in place that directs any military member, or any government personnel overseas to ignore human rights abuses," spokesman Capt. Jeff Davis said. "Any sexual abuse, no matter who the alleged perpetrator and no matter who the victim, is completely unacceptable and reprehensible."

U.S. Rep. Duncan Hunter, a Republican from California, has taken up Martland's case with Defense Secretary Ash Carter in an attempt to keep the solider in the Army.

"Martland stood up to a child rapist," Hunter, a former major in the Marines, wrote in a letter to Carter last month. "I trust that you will give this case the attention it demands."

But after a decade of training with U.S. forces, it seems some Afghan commanders are continuing the abuse unchecked.

edition.cnn.com...

“Generally, child sexual abuse is a matter of domestic law, unless the activity constitutes a gross violation of human rights (GVHR) or a violation of the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC),” the official said.

In several instances, U.S. soldiers could hear child rape occurring, but they were “told to ignore these events because it’s part of Afghanistan’s ‘culture,’” according to the Washington Examiner.

freebeacon.com...

a reply to: Profusion

There is no "good" or "bad" when you are in a war. And make no mistake, trying to be moral in a war will get those with a big heart killed real quick.

I've been to two of them, how many have you been to? No matter what side you are on, its all grey everywhere you look despite any noble assumptions the general population has. Soldiers are the ones that do the dirty work. Thats history.