Planned Parenthood, is this a moral issue or just a legal issue?

a reply to: misskat1

The fact of killing a living thing, not a mere tumor, makes it a moral issue.
The fact is also that the liberals and lower echelon progressives tend to think this is an OK thing to do, where as killing anything else is a major moral offense. I just don't get their logic. But perhaps the tide is turning.

Abortion is an amoral action that has been legalized.

My opinion.

*drops mic and walks away*

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: misskat1

The fact of killing a living thing, not a mere tumor, makes it a moral issue.
The fact is also that the liberals and lower echelon progressives tend to think this is an OK thing to do, where as killing anything else is a major moral offense. I just don't get their logic. But perhaps the tide is turning.

Are there any circumstances in which you approve of abortion?

Rape, incest, life-threatening danger to pregnant woman?

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Before we didnt have a visual of the procedure. I wonder how many would sign the donation form if they watched the video first? Most havent seen an aborted chopped up fetus. It was no doubt shocking to the core.

Oh but they are only the size of a kidney bean what's all the hubbub?/sarc

originally posted by: beezzer
Abortion is an amoral action that has been legalized.

My opinion.

*drops mic and walks away*

Abortion is the same thing as trimming some branches off a shrub that's growing out of it's place.

My opinion.

The other day you were speaking of compromise. Do you still want to compromise? How about this? We make birth control readily available and cheap/free, including morning after pills. The more birth control people have, the fewer situations we're going to run into where abortion is even a concern. That doesn't solve the problem, but it means there's less to fight over.

"I ain't gonna pay for nobody's durn condoms or birth-control pills"

~ well-known battle cry of right-wingers and anti-abortionists everywhere ...

followed up in popularity by ...

"If'n you didt wanna have kids shoulda kept yer legs shut."

But, yeah, the anti-choice zealots are only about "protecting the unborn."

Jeebus.

a reply to: misskat1

"Planned Parenthood, is this a moral issue or just a legal issue?" it's neither, its about freedom of choice and technology nothing else.

This sort of question seeks to do what the 2 party political system does, (in this case tries to) to limit choices to two determined by the asker.

This is a rather crude form of the above because if it was asked to engender genuinie discussion the point I have made in my intial response would have been included in the choices. Moreover, the questioner would have simply asked for views on the subject matter.

originally posted by: Aliensun
The fact of killing a living thing, not a mere tumor, makes it a moral issue.

Like killing a plant, a bug, a fish, a cow or some other living thing?

The fact is also that the liberals and lower echelon progressives tend to think this is an OK thing to do,

He Shoots! He SCORES!! Fantastic insult against the "other side"! I wonder what the "upper echelon progressives" think...

Anyway. abortion isn't OK. To me, it's NEVER OK. Nothing about abortion is OK. TO ME. Even though most consider me a liberal and progressive.

See? I know how to apply MY morals TO ME and allow the freedom for others to apply THEIR morals TO THEMSELVES. Some of your "lower intelligence conservative regressives" just can't wrap their little brains around the concept that freedom means freedom for ALL, even if I disagree with them. Hopefully, they'll catch up it someday.

(See what I did there? ... Pretty funny, huh?)

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

That's the center point of this entire issue right there: Freedom.

Some people just cannot stand the idea that someone will use their freedom to do something they would not do. What's even worse is that they try to stop them from doing it, jeopardizing freedom for everyone.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Yep, that's the core issue. Freedom. Not just "freedom" used as a buzz-word to criticize Democratic actions and policies when the Republicans are out of power.

To me, it's not anyone's beliefs that I want to change. Haven't been and won't be pregnant, but if I were, I would never abort unless it was either my life or theirs, or, they were going to be horribly deformed or disabled.

If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. Morals and beliefs are personal, and they should remain personal.

But, just like many right-wing hypocrites, some only chatter about "freedom" when they're trying to score political points or don't want to have to comply with laws, regulations, requirements, etc. Or, there's a Democrat involved.

I believe in true freedom, equality before the laws, and the general welfare. Those are the only "good uses" of government.

And they call me (and you, and others) "authoritarians."

#sheeshenoughalready

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: eletheia

Did PP say the vids were not real? I thought they were suing the film makers for privacy laws, not for falsely making a vid.

They are also suing over false claims being made about them in the videos

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Before we didnt have a visual of the procedure. I wonder how many would sign the donation form if they watched the video first? Most havent seen an aborted chopped up fetus. It was no doubt shocking to the core.

That's like asking how many wouldn't sign up to be an organ donor after seeing an autopsy video.

The whole abortion issue along with all the side issues such as this one is so multi level that it really cannot be discussed on simply legal grounds. As complicated humans, we each see a different level to this whole unfolding social development conversation.

In a civilized society, we, as a group, must determine what taboos and mores we will keep in place, which ones we will change, and which ones we will discard. IMO, that is what is happening now. We have been exposed by these videos to something that is making us all THINK.

Because it is a multi-level issue encompassing a wide range of legal, ethical, and moral societal values, we individually take it to a place where we must stand, and stand firm.

Those that see a fetus as nothing more than a glob of tissue cannot comprehend why another would be appalled at the thought of treating an emerging life that has potential in such a manner and with such a cavalier attitude.

Progression of a civil society does not mean we throw away all of our values and taboos. Sometimes progression means holding onto those things that have maintained our moral compass and safe passage through time, while continuing to be open minded, but alert and cautious about those things that can deteriorate and destroy a society.

a reply to: queenofswords

Star for you, that's a reasonable, well-thought-out response.

But as you say "values" are a tricky matter. I think you're confused to some degree to believe that everyone who is pro-choice is also automatically "pro-abortion" somehow.

As Heretic and I have repeatedly said, that is absolutely not the case.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: queenofswords

Star for you, that's a reasonable, well-thought-out response.

But as you say "values" are a tricky matter. I think you're confused to some degree to believe that everyone who is pro-choice is also automatically "pro-abortion" somehow.

As Heretic and I have repeatedly said, that is absolutely not the case.

Thanks, Gryph. No, I'm not confused about the pros. I, for one, hate abortion. However, I don't want to see it made illegal because I know that women who want to abort will abort one way or the other. I would hate to see a black market arise to deal with it or worse yet, a back-alley coat hanger method re-emerge.

originally posted by: queenofswords


Thanks, Gryph. No, I'm not confused about the pros. I, for one, hate abortion. However, I don't want to see it made illegal because I know that women who want to abort will abort one way or the other. I would hate to see a black market arise to deal with it or worse yet, a back-alley coat hanger method re-emerge.

Couldn't have stated it any better myself. Great random chance, does this mean we're agreeing???

a reply to: Gryphon66

LOL...I had to walk outside to see if it might be snowing!

a reply to: queenofswords

Well, here on Main Street, Hell USA, I can tell you there seems to be some sort of glossy, slippery coating on the ground outside ... I mean it looks like ICE!

Weird weather we're having!

(Sorry for the personal interactions, Mods ... but this is a special occasion!)

originally posted by: queenofswords
Those that see a fetus as nothing more than a glob of tissue cannot comprehend why another would be appalled at the thought of treating an emerging life that has potential in such a manner and with such a cavalier attitude.

Unfortunately, those who are appalled at treating an emerging life with such a cavalier attitude seem to lose all concern once that life has emerged. They'll do everything possible to protect the emerging life, but once it's emerged, it's not their problem and it is THEY who have the cavalier attitude.

That's why the choice should be solely on the shoulders of the person(s) who will be caring for that life for the coming 18 years.

If those who are appalled at abortion would do more to make birth control easily accessible to women, abortion rates would drop like a stone, but they aren't willing to take that step. They're not willing to take ANY steps or make any compromises.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I disagree 100% with your premise. You think that way because you believe Government should be the Big Daddy from cradle to grave and when all your Big Programs are not funded as Big as you want them to be, you blame it on those old mean republicans. Liberals like to talk the talk, but they seldom walk the walk themselves. They need Big Ole Government Crutches just to walk down to the drug store and buy a pack of condoms.

And as far as birth control not being accessible, that is laughable. How much is a pack of condoms, or a container of spermacide? Some local clinics provide cheap generic bcp. There are websites that have information on how to save or get free birth control.

I haven't researched all the stats, but I would bet that conservatives probably adopt more children than liberals do. Just a gut feeling due to the fact that they do tend to "walk the walk" rather than "talk the talk".