Once Saved Always Saved or Lost Salvation???

A long time ago, my mother and her husband used to hold simple Bible studies at their house. I was living there, without a room of my own. So I was more often then not, a part of them. This was before I was an atheist. I wasn't really a practicing Christian either. There were a couple weeks in which I did not participate in the devotion, but sat near enough to overhear them at my computer.

The subject was salvation. There was some disagreement amongst some of the church goers as to whether or not one could lose their salvation, or if once they were saved they were always saved. It seemed to me at the time, that both sides had some reasonable points to back up their perspective. I don't really recall what their points were now. There was some contention but ultimately they decided to agree to disagree.

For those of you who don't know, I am an atheist. I am also, a former Christian. In my youth, I was saved. According to the doctrines I believed in at the time. Perhaps by your measurements I wasn't a "true Christian" though. I accepted I was a sinner, and prayed to Jesus Christ to wash my sins away and make me white as snow. I prayed for the Lord to fill my body like a temple, with his presence. I accepted he was the Son of God and accepted his gift of eternal life, and set out to be a fisher of men through his example.

Obviously, my path in life took a different route. So my question to the theologically minded here at ATS.

Will we see each other in Heaven?

Or has my name (and those of other former Christians) been blotted from the Book of Life?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I remember reading somewhere, and it's been a LONG time so I can't recall where (if it was in the official Gospels or or the Gnostic gospels), that once your name is there, it cannot be removed 'even by the "Father."'

I took this to mean that once you become part of the Holy Spirit, which is a universalism/Buddhist void/the eternal ONEness/etc, that you're always a part of it, re-connected to it.

While religion tends to rely on "Jesus" and "God," the Holy spirit is the binding force of...everything, and once you're elevated, Elect, and enlightened enough to have re-connected, you always will be.

I think the belief here depends on what sect you are talking about. Some say you can and some say you can't, just like some say that salvation is works based and other say strictly grace and some say a mix of the two.

I think at the end of the day you can turn your back on God after once having had grace, and I think having grace is a continual process just like friendship.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer
Boy, you didn't pick an easy one this time, did you? This argument has been going on for centuries. For the record, when I was a Christian, I did not believe in "once saved, always saved". But you'll find plenty of Baptists who do, as that is what they are taught in most Baptist sects. There are verses in the gospels, as well as the epistles that don't bear it out. imho.

Maybe become a Taoist and rid thySelf of "labels"?

Just for debate sake- If You weren't a real 'practicing Chris†ian' and now self describe as "Atheist" why should running into each other in Heaven matter? As far as I'm concerned personally, You can be anything You want to be, makes no matter to Me, if We run into each other whether it be here/there You'd NEVER know, because I NEVER talk about sex/politics/religion™ in public and especially with someOne I just "bumped into" I do it here for the whole anonymity of the intraweb . I only mention that because of My time here at ATS I've read where many take their religion to a whole new level, some even have nudged St. Pete off of the gate and are now doing the "judging" so keep Your wits about You..

Aren't We all on separate paths together?

namaste

a reply to: Klassified

Good point. I've always had a problem with the "once saved always saved" notion, as well (because it leaves open the possibility of getting saved and then being able to live a horrible life and hurt others but still "go to Heaven," which is, IMO BS), and have debated it with religious folks, but I think that many people get "saved" out of duty and/or necessity and therefore aren't truly saved.

It has to be a change and an awakening in the heart ( that is trans-religion, too, not confined to Christianity).

So, I think that many people who got "saved" and think they are saved, aren't truly "saved."

I've heard this many times before, that once saved always saved. I don't believe this. I do believe that some can go into a slump where they question their faith and take other paths for awhile. Some call this backsliding, but you can be still be forgiven provided that you repent. Repentance is the only way through the pearly gates, without that then their no chance.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

30"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.....

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Forget mainstream Christianity, no one needs that in order to be saved. Just follow the words of Christ and be a fisher of men and your all good. Do your best to obtain from sin and the lust of the world and you should be fine. Stay faithful even when things get ugly, I know this is the hardest part, but like Jesus said, he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Being "saved" just means you've been accepted by whatever denomination you chose to attend...

It has nothing to do with your actions in this life... Once we're done here, we shall find out who is "saved" and who is not...

originally posted by: Akragon
Being "saved" just means you've been accepted by whatever denomination you chose to attend...

It has nothing to do with your actions in this life... Once we're done here, we shall find out who is "saved" and who is not...

Is that Biblical, or just your opinion? I believe the OP is looking for Biblical answers.

It is a good question. I'm not a Christian either though I nominally grew up in a Christian household and did attend Sunday School and Church, sang in the choir all that stuff and really believed in what I heard at the time.

But this idea of 'grace' never made any sense to me or that belief alone assured salvation, even the idea of heaven and hell never made any logical sense to me. And that was before noticing that the people who were 'teaching' me didn't do what they said.

The idea that god gives grace capriciously to whomever just is dumb and that one's actions don't negate grace even more so. The very idea that god would grace some and not others isn't in keeping with the 'loving God' I was taught.

I prefer the idea that 'grace' is our natural state and that we as beings with selfwill move in and out of grace or, I prefer, flow according to our actions, words and thoughts being in alignment with that 'flow'. Now I don't believe that flow is defined and created by a creator God - but the concept works just as well with or without a creator god. Whatever works for you.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: Akragon
Being "saved" just means you've been accepted by whatever denomination you chose to attend...

It has nothing to do with your actions in this life... Once we're done here, we shall find out who is "saved" and who is not...

Is that Biblical, or just your opinion? I believe the OP is looking for Biblical answers.

Of course its biblical...

Jesus didn't just tell people to give themselves a label and preach about a book... He gave an example to live by...

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION


I'll see you in Heaven. You may have turned from God, but he hasn't turned from you.


AGAIN, JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker

originally posted by: Akragon
Being "saved" just means you've been accepted by whatever denomination you chose to attend...

It has nothing to do with your actions in this life... Once we're done here, we shall find out who is "saved" and who is not...

Is that Biblical, or just your opinion? I believe the OP is looking for Biblical answers.

Of course its biblical...

Jesus didn't just tell people to give themselves a label and preach about a book... He gave an example to live by...

But in this day and age no one would know the words of Christ were if was not written in a book right?

27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops........So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus wants us to spread his message, not just believe in him and sit around.

originally posted by: ketsuko
I think the belief here depends on what sect you are talking about. Some say you can and some say you can't, just like some say that salvation is works based and other say strictly grace and some say a mix of the two.

I was a Baptist. My mother's husband I'd pin down as a charismatic, I believe. He's into all that speaking in tongues (thankfully I only saw him do it once) stuff, and studied/worked with some of those bigger names you hear about, like Copeland.

I think at the end of the day you can turn your back on God after once having had grace, and I think having grace is a continual process just like friendship.

That's how I feel too. I mean, if I believed in it of course. This makes me think of that footsteps in the sand poster that was big back in the day. My opinion is that God would stick by your side, even in your darkest of days. Of course, I can see how he could reject those that had once had his grace, say if said person honestly and intentionally rejected God first.

The "church" has been infiltrated which is WHY it bares so little resemblance to the early Church.

This is the source of all of the lies such as 'Once Saved, Always Saved'...

"What if there were people within the various Churches of God who covertly were guiding the members to slowly accept new ideas which are alien to the true faith and who were dedicated to destroying that faith at all costs?"

JESUIT-JEDI MINDTRICKS

The Vatican has infiltrated, or neutered and spayed, virtually every denomination and organization in Christendom. Various means have been used, but Opus Dei has played a major role in this. I am fully persuaded that Opus Dei and the Jesuits have already planted many of their agents in Baptist and Fundamental churches and schools.

I am convinced that many Fundamental Baptist churches are NOW pastored by Jesuits and Opus Dei agents. Many deacons and Sunday School teachers are now inside the Baptist movement teaching doctrines of Rome. You need to read the following articles so that you can watch for the signs that you too have an hireling planted in your church by the Vatican.

OPUS DEI-- War on Protestantism

The doctrine of once-saved-always-saved is a new belief introduced approximately fifty years ago by secular progressive clergy eager to lift the “burden” of God’s Word off the backs of unrepentant sinners. Prior to then there was not one major denomination that preached or believed the once-saved-always-saved lie many now consider Gospel.

The argument made by those preaching the biblically unsustainable doctrine is that nothing can separate us from God once we have been saved. These verses (John 10:28-29 ), like all Scripture, are true. They are also, as they pertain to the issue, irrelevant. They are so because they talk about the inability of anyone taking us from our Savior, while ignoring that we always have free will. Meaning, while we cannot be taken from Him, we can turn from Him, as that is our God-given right.

ONCE-SAVED-ALWAYS-SAVED IS A DEADLY LIE

What if I were to tell you, that there is a vast Satanic conspiracy to deceive the masses of every society on earth? What if I were to tell you that the top leaders of the world’s religions were in league with the Devil? Would you think I’m crazy? I would! Yet, the truth is stranger than fiction! You have been lied to my friend. Few people in the world today are aware of just how much Satan has infiltrated organized religion. Link

The Real Conspiracy the Jesuit infiltration of Christianity

a reply to: RealTruthSeeker

Jesus wants us to spread his message, not just believe in him and sit around.

That was my point

originally posted by: JimNasium
Maybe become a Taoist and rid thySelf of "labels"?

I don't like labels that much, some are ok. I decided I was ok with taking up the atheist label for a couple reasons. Mainly so that there would be no question as to my lack of belief, by those around me who know. I do not want them thinking I'm just lukewarm, or backsliding. I wanted it to be clear that I don't believe. A second reason I took the label is, I enjoy rocking the boat a little sometimes. Simply being an atheist is enough to do that, in the right crowd. Haha.

Just for debate sake- If You weren't a real 'practicing Chris†ian' and now self describe as "Atheist" why should running into each other in Heaven matter? As far as I'm concerned personally, You can be anything You want to be, makes no matter to Me, if We run into each other whether it be here/there You'd NEVER know, because I NEVER talk about sex/politics/religion™ in public and especially with someOne I just "bumped into" I do it here for the whole anonymity of the intraweb . I only mention that because of My time here at ATS I've read where many take their religion to a whole new level, some even have nudged St. Pete off of the gate and are now doing the "judging" so keep Your wits about You..

I'm just throwing the question out there. I have no real concern who or who I do not run into in the afterlife, if such a thing exists. I guess it was a little boat rock, asking if there are any loopholes that will get an atheist into heaven. :p

Aren't We all on separate paths together?

Certainly!

namaste

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10

9 Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then I will be blameless, innocent of great transgression. Pslam 19

The problem today is the church doesn't teach the message of perfect obedience through the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of fallen man, keeps one seperated from the perfection found in the Holy Spirit.

The true messag in the religious texts, is we are born ignorant. In our ignorance we commit sin. When someone accepts that the Perfect Holy Spirit is within them they will be guided away from all sin.

The texts tell us we are to obey the 10 commandments at all times, and these laws are not hard to follow, nor impossible. But we are too ignorant as children to understand, so we break even those commands that are easy to follow. As we get older we are to overcome sin.

The only sin allowed by those who Follow the Holy Spirit are sins done in ignorance. You may hurt another without breaking the commandments simply because you were too ignorant to see that what you were doing was hurting the other person.

The fallen are not like the risen. And although we are born in ignorance, the call is to be raised in knowledge through obedience to the internal voice of Love and Reason, the Holy Spirit. Once one reaches full awareness of the Holy Spirit it is highly unlikely they would ever return to willful disobedience.

So no, once saved is not always saved. But most who claim to be saved still claim to be fallen. And the fallen are not like the risen. Those who claim to be fallen have not tasted the gift of perfection that is found in the Holy Spirit.

The fallen can still repent and pursue the perfection of the risen. Then they will find perfection in the Holy Spirit.

Only until you stop tithing.

originally posted by: RealTruthSeeker
Is that Biblical, or just your opinion? I believe the OP is looking for Biblical answers.

Yes, but opinions are cool too.

Besides, people interpret the Bible differently. Akragon's is just different from a more typical analysis of scripture/experiences. And just as valid as anyone elses views. IMHO anyway.