Old Testament remedies for sin; Send it away

a reply to: DISRAELI

No parent is going to be thrown into jail just for bringing a child into existence.

Maybe not, but if they threaten their child to abuse animals then probably.

Then understanding what he wants from us is the rational thing to do, and ignoring him altogether is a non-rational thing to do. It amounts to avoidance of reality, living in denial.

Denying your own freedom and happiness is living in denial and believing everything should be according to whatever god you worship instead of being happy and free is avoidance of reality.

If the god does not respect free-will then that god is on the same mental level as an immature human being who does the same and is unworthy of being worshiped, so the animal sacrifices are/were not really needed.

originally posted by: arpgme
Maybe not, but if they threaten their child to abuse animals then probably.

"Abuse of animals" is a non-issue here. They were animals bred to be killed and eaten, so they would have died anyway.

Denying your own freedom and happiness is living in denial

If it is NOT true that we are "free", in the sense of being completely self-originating and self-dependent, then recognising reality is about recognising that it is not true.
"Living in denial" means "making your understanding of reality conform to your own wishes".

If the god does not respect free-will then that god is on the same mental level as an immature human being

Or, in other words, you won't accept any God who doesn't allow reality to conform to your own wishes.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Or, in other words, you won't accept any God who doesn't allow reality to conform to your own wishes.

Strange, because it seems like that's exactly what that god is trying to do, conform reality to his wishes.

I guess it's that god that's living in denial.

a reply to: arpgme
If he did create everything, then his will and "reality" are the same thing anyway.
He doesn't need to "deny" reality to make them fit.

This business of "passing moral judgement on God" is a red herring.
Let's take an analogy.
You cannot breathe in water; you would drown.
Accepting reality means acknowledging the fact that you would drown, and not trying to breathe in water.
Insisting that you will breathe in water because you have a moral right to do it would be living in denial.
So you would gain nothing by taking a high moral tone against the action of water, saying that drowning you would be an infringement of your freedom, and that you cannot have any respect for water that tries to drown you against your will.
If you did that, then the denial of reality would be getting silly. You would still drown.

Similarly, sneering at the supposed mental state of God does not affect the facts of the situation.
If he did bring you into existence, then he brought you into existence whether you like it or not.
And if your continuing existence depends on him, then it depends on him whether you like it or not.
In that case, recognising the fact would be the rational thing to do.

a reply to: DISRAELI

If he did bring you into existence, then he brought you into existence whether you like it or not.
And if your continuing existence depends on him, then it depends on him whether you like it or not.

Well, in that case free-will doesn't exist. It's either obey or die like a person holding a gun to another person's head. The rational thing to do for those who have and support morality such as freedom, compassion, and joy would still be to disobey instead of being a slave and killing as a sacrifice.

If someone you considered immoral had full control of reality somehow, would you sacrifice your morals and integrity? The way you speak makes it sound as if you easily would.

a reply to: arpgme
Yes, living under water is obviously a high moral purpose.
I wish you luck.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I wish you luck.

No need for luck. The Kingdom of God is within me. I don't actually believe the old testament god is the true God, it was just a hypothetical situation. Animal sacrifice to please the old testament god who wants to control everyone would still be irrational for a compassionate person to do, even if he were The True God (which he is not).

This thread has a sequel;
Wash it away
There will be other threads on the same theme.