Where are the aliens?

originally posted by: Indigent
The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the tecnology level to find them.

i would rephrase that to " The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the technological level to Prove them real "

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye

originally posted by: Indigent
The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the tecnology level to find them.

i would rephrase that to " The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the technological level to Prove them real "

Since Earth has the technology to "read" an exoplanet's atmosphere and "see" IF thee is any automobile exhaust in it...I'd say y'all have the technological ability to prove that ET is indeed real.

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye

originally posted by: Indigent
The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the tecnology level to find them.

i would rephrase that to " The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the technological level to Prove them real "

Since Earth has the technology to "read" an exoplanet's atmosphere and "see" IF thee is any automobile exhaust in it...I'd say y'all have the technological ability to prove that ET is indeed real.

You are assuming aliens have cars like us using the same fuel as us.

I see my favorite theory is left out again as is usual. What mine is, is best summed up by Arthur C. Clarke:

The fact that we have not yet found the slightest evidence for life — much less intelligence — beyond this Earth does not surprise or disappoint me in the least. Our technology must still be laughably primitive, we may be like jungle savages listening for the throbbing of tom-toms while the ether around them carries more words per second than they could utter in a lifetime.
- "Credo" (1991); also in Greetings, Carbon-Based Bipeds! : Collected Essays, 1934-1998 (1999), p. 360

Simply put, our technology is simply too primitive and stupid to detect them. Broad, energy wasteful radio signals are an absolutely terrible way to send long-distance calls through space. They breakdown and degrade the farther they go, ultimately becoming white noise within the CMB. In fact, we're starting to phase out radio, converting to more energy efficient digital signals, which means even if someone is able to tune in I Love Lucy on a distant planet, it'll only be for a very limited time (under 100 years, give or take a few decades).

So what would advanced aliens be using?

Directed lasers, come up as one possibility. A single tight, energy efficient beam would be able to get to its distant destination mostly intact, provided that the beam was accurately aimed. If it's angle is just slightly off, it could completely miss the intended recipient entirely and the recipient wouldn't be any wiser. There's also the possibility that the aliens figured out quantum entanglement and figured out how to send information through it (something far, far beyond our reach). I'm sure there are other advanced communications possibilities, any of them far more efficient than clunky energy inefficient radio.

That said, we are starting to develop the technologies that allow us to peer into other star systems, and so I have great expectations for Optical SETI.

originally posted by: taoistguy

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye

originally posted by: Indigent
The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the tecnology level to find them.

i would rephrase that to " The aliens are a few years into the future when we get to the technological level to Prove them real "

Since Earth has the technology to "read" an exoplanet's atmosphere and "see" IF thee is any automobile exhaust in it...I'd say y'all have the technological ability to prove that ET is indeed real.

You are assuming aliens have cars like us using the same fuel as us.

nice of you to miss the point...so how about a re-phrase...Earth technology is fully capable of detect the contribution ET has made to his atmosphere...what ever it is...and it is very safe to think that ET has made contributions to his environment, just as Humans have.

originally posted by: Kojiro

Simply put, our technology is simply too primitive and stupid to detect them. Broad, energy wasteful radio signals are an absolutely terrible way to send long-distance calls through space. They breakdown and degrade the farther they go, ultimately becoming white noise within the CMB. In fact, we're starting to phase out radio, converting to more energy efficient digital signals, which means even if someone is able to tune in I Love Lucy on a distant planet, it'll only be for a very limited time (under 100 years, give or take a few decades).

So what would advanced aliens be using?

Directed lasers, come up as one possibility. A single tight, energy efficient beam would be able to get to its distant destination mostly intact, provided that the beam was accurately aimed. If it's angle is just slightly off, it could completely miss the intended recipient entirely and the recipient wouldn't be any wiser. There's also the possibility that the aliens figured out quantum entanglement and figured out how to send information through it (something far, far beyond our reach). I'm sure there are other advanced communications possibilities, any of them far more efficient than clunky energy inefficient radio.

That said, we are starting to develop the technologies that allow us to peer into other star systems, and so I have great expectations for Optical SETI.

You're funny...So, tell us; what is the difference between Radio and Lasers?

I know many of y'all think there is a difference, but, there really isn't...further the use of electromagnetic quanta for communication is a natural solution to the problem, and one which presents rather early...so, it is entirely probable that ET uses or did use radio.

I have always been fond of the Galactic Zoo concept, I mean considering how primitive we still are in so many ways. You know how on earth we protect small groups of species etc, it is probably the same. Maybe its some other version of the concept like were an endangered species and put here to repopulate who really knows but honestly the zoo idea makes more sense to me than some of the other ones. Likewise it would make sense that we might have a few visitors here and there that don't care about breaking 'galactic law'.

a reply to: tanka418

You're funnier.

Radio uses radio waves, a laser uses light. Different technologies. Different bands of electromagnetic radiation. You might as well suggest that deadly gamma rays are the same thing as radio, even though radio can't burn you to a mote in an instant like a gamma ray can.

Furthermore, at no point did I say aliens have never possessed radio, they are simply unlikely to use it for long in their development, much like ourselves.

Although, fair enough, maybe there'll be some crazy HAM enthusiast in the Cybernetic Combine of Zildark Prime. I doubt his signals will get far though, unless he wants to explain to the Combine government why he's wasting so much energy to broadcast a low band of electromagnetic radiation across the universe when he could simply use the government's latest quantum rift transmitters that they installed in the Galactic Communications Center last year.

Of all the millions of Species Earth has produced, only one has evolved enough to ask that question in 4 billion years...
Other Earth like planets might never see a species evolve the way Humans have. Even today there is no other species here that we can communicate with. How do you expect there to be life nearby that we could communicate with?

That right there is the Answer to this question. Mark this thread solved.

originally posted by: Xeven
Of all the millions of Species Earth has produced, only one has evolved enough to ask that question in 4 billion years...
Other Earth like planets might never see a species evolve the way Humans have. Even today there is no other species here that we can communicate with. How do you expect there to be life nearby that we could communicate with?

That right there is the Answer to this question. Mark this thread solved.

Perhaps it wasnt an accident, perhaps evolution can be influenced.

Just read up on biotech we can do it, why couldnt other intelligent life do it too?

originally posted by: moebius
What is your favorite and why?

Statistics is why.

The number of stars in our milky way is open to debate but let's say 300 Billion (splitting the difference on the estimate)

Lets assume, very generously, that there are 1 million civilisations out there.

This means there is one solar system with aliens for every 100,000 without.

Right, let's build a starship with a FTL drive which can "warp" between solar systems in 1 day. Exceptionally generous and fast!

Let's add day to day things, eating , sleeping, going for a pee, working etc. But we are going to have our explorers work their balls off and completely examine a solar system in 1 day !

So thats 2 days per trip. The odds of finding an advanced species in one trip is .0001%

If we were to travel every 2 days for a lifetime of 50 years (being exceedingly generous to pensioner astronauts), then
50 years * 365 days / 2 per trip = 9125 visits.

so the odds of finding a civilisation is = 9125/100000 = 9%

So you work your balls off for 50 years, no holidays and have a 9% success rate.

Realistically any wandering Star Trek vehicle doing a basic mapping, no thorough planetary examination, will visit a couple of hundred in a lifetime.

The only way anyone anywhere is going to visit another civilisation is if they detect where it is beforehand. Given the problem of time then whatever detection process exists has to be possible at speeds faster than light.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: tanka418

You're funnier.

Radio uses radio waves, a laser uses light. Different technologies. Different bands of electromagnetic radiation. You might as well suggest that deadly gamma rays are the same thing as radio, even though radio can't burn you to a mote in an instant like a gamma ray can.

lol...okay, gamma rays are the same as radio. In as much as they are both electromagnetic radiation...it would seem that they follow the same physics. Further, gamma rays, are simply very high energy "radio"...which, contrary to your belief, will burn you to an instant crisp at sufficiently high energy levels.

Furthermore, at no point did I say aliens have never possessed radio, they are simply unlikely to use it for long in their development, much like ourselves.

No you didn't, you were attempting to go on about how ET would use light and lasers. When, in fact, the use of light, lasers, is actually a step backwards when it comes to communication. Back in the early years of the last century there were attempts to use light for communication...it did seem a natural thing to do. But when it came to needing the "light" to change direction, to "bend" around a blocking object; it was found that light couldn't work. That's one of the problems with light...you can block it with a thin piece of paper. In the atmosphere of all planets, even in space there "dust clouds" that will prevent lasers from working by blocking the complete transmission of any light; making the lower frequency "radio" superior in all respects. Even the power loss / dissipation (propagation) of radio and lasers is the same,

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: tanka418

You're funnier.

Radio uses radio waves, a laser uses light. Different technologies. Different bands of electromagnetic radiation. You might as well suggest that deadly gamma rays are the same thing as radio, even though radio can't burn you to a mote in an instant like a gamma ray can.

lol...okay, gamma rays are the same as radio. In as much as they are both electromagnetic radiation...it would seem that they follow the same physics. Further, gamma rays, are simply very high energy "radio"...which, contrary to your belief, will burn you to an instant crisp at sufficiently high energy levels.

No, gamma rays are high energy electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation isn't radio, radio is is low spectral band electromagnetic radiation. You know, like that old saying we teach small children: "All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs."

And I'm pretty sure I stated that gamma rays could kill you in an instant, so I don't grasp where you think I said otherwise.

Furthermore, at no point did I say aliens have never possessed radio, they are simply unlikely to use it for long in their development, much like ourselves.

No you didn't, you were attempting to go on about how ET would use light and lasers. When, in fact, the use of light, lasers, is actually a step backwards when it comes to communication. Back in the early years of the last century there were attempts to use light for communication...it did seem a natural thing to do. But when it came to needing the "light" to change direction, to "bend" around a blocking object; it was found that light couldn't work. That's one of the problems with light...you can block it with a thin piece of paper. In the atmosphere of all planets, even in space there "dust clouds" that will prevent lasers from working by blocking the complete transmission of any light; making the lower frequency "radio" superior in all respects. Even the power loss / dissipation (propagation) of radio and lasers is the same,

Hm... and I suppose you have another self-drawn graph showing these results, because it seems rather peculiar that if such a problem with lasers existed, that they would go ahead and use and search for the technology with Optical SETI.

www.seti.org...

a reply to: moebius

They're separated from us by billions of light years (distance) and billions of years (time). Out of reach in both space and time. That is to say, complex, intelligent life. As for more simple life, I think it's pretty likely that we'll find it elsewhere in our solar system, possibly even on Mars. With the exchange of materials via impacts between the two planets, I think it's even possible that we share a genesis.

originally posted by: Kojiro
No, gamma rays are high energy electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation isn't radio, radio is is low spectral band electromagnetic radiation. You know, like that old saying we teach small children: "All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs."

I like that...not quite sure what you are saying are you?!!?

Gamma Rays are high energy electromagnetic radiation...absolutely true, but you have failed to take into account just "what" 'high energy' means in this context.

This one I really like...'Electromagnetic radiation isn't radio..." then you say that it is...

Here's the thing; it either isn't or it is, there is only one way, not two. And here is the reality...radio, from the simplest (think crystal radios like I played with as a kid), to the most sophisticated (think of something like your cell phone), are at their heart, the very same technology. Think of Tesla and his "primitive" radio attempts, and then think of the New Horizons space craft, and it's methods of communication...they are at their hearts; the very same technology.

The production of electromagnetic radiation and the impression of information upon that "radio wave" is at its heart the same whether I build a "radio" to do it, or it happens in the bowels of a singularity. The only differences here are those brought about by not understanding that electromagnetic radiation is electromagnetic radiation.

And I'm pretty sure I stated that gamma rays could kill you in an instant, so I don't grasp where you think I said otherwise.

No actually, I just pointed out that just like the gamma ray, a "radio wave" can do the very same...and for the very same reasons.

Hm... and I suppose you have another self-drawn graph showing these results, because it seems rather peculiar that if such a problem with lasers existed, that they would go ahead and use and search for the technology with Optical SETI.

www.seti.org...

Not sure what you are on about here, but, if you take a moment and think about it...most light stops at the very first solid object it encounters...not being capable of bending around objects and all...

And, long before you go accepting everything SETI says...please take a very long and good look at their track record. They have been searching for how long? And, still no viable results...

Course then again...you should take a look at just "how" these guys implement their technology...seriously, have you looked at how their data is acquired?

Sorry to say; IF SETI did receive a viable signal from somewhere, their technique may mask it, perhaps permanently.

And as for the "Optical Seti" thing, they would be better off looking for Masers instead of Lasers.

originally posted by: Xeven
Of all the millions of Species Earth has produced, only one has evolved enough to ask that question in 4 billion years...

That is questionable at best. One that has been acknowledged.

a reply to: tanka418

Okay, you go show me an experiment of someone frying a person with a radio. Prove your theories. Put it into practice. Because frankly, if the frequency gets high enough, the radio wave is no longer a radio wave, it is a microwave. These are different spectral bands.

Oh, and feel free to call up Seth Shostak and tell him that they've been wasting their time and that you are the answer to all of their problems.

a reply to: micpsi

That was by far the best post in this thread.
Wish I could give you more than one star for that. Well done.

a reply to: taoistguy

The usefulness of liquid hydrocarbon fuel is based on universal chemistry.

If you had to pick out a design for safe portable energy and given the periodic table & chemistry textbook, you'd come up with kerosene.

originally posted by: mbkennel
a reply to: taoistguy

The usefulness of liquid hydrocarbon fuel is based on universal chemistry.

If you had to pick out a design for safe portable energy and given the periodic table & chemistry textbook, you'd come up with kerosene.

what do we know of universal chemistry???
We haven't even got to mars.
Your argument is based on the limited knowledge of a subsect of earth academia at this present time.