At Age 3 — Transitioning From Jack To Jackie

At 3 years old, kids haven't a clue who they are yet. How can he know he doesn't want to be boy when he has no real concept of what a boy is? At that age, there's no real concept of gender. He's barely had time to start building his character. He can't make that kind of decision yet. There's a lot of parental guidance missing here.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: Annee

CITIZENLINK ---- nothing like God guilt.

Grabbed the first there are many many...I am sure you realize this.

There is ZERO scientific evidence sexual orientation can be changed in humans (at this time).

Of course child abuse has long lasting psychological affects. But, it does not make a straight person gay.

If a person is attracted to same sex, they are gay.

originally posted by: SubTruth
OK I guess I did not make myself clear enough.......The gay movement does have leaders and this is a.......FACT. All I did was ask the question I wonder if they are for or against this.......

Why is this so hard to understand........It was a simple question. Should I phrase it another way or underline key words or something?

Truthfully, I have no idea how to answer your question. Ask people in the gay movement if they've received a memo or something on this. My participation in the LGBTQ+ community and "movement" is and has only been peripheral at best and I was only addressing the fact that you expressed all in this community were of a common mind and opinion.

I think anyone with a sense of human decency should treat gender identity issues with compassion and knowledge and on an individual case by case basis. Personally, I think parents should reinforce traditional gender roles and behavior in very young children up to a point. Do I think three is too young even if a boy does like to play with dolls or whatever? I would have to say that yes, probably it is in my opinion but if by five or six and definitely by age seven, little boys that want to be girls or little girls wanting to be boys should involve evaluation and professional guidance for the parent's response.

All these posters venting manufactured outrage at a insignificant non issue, is really quite sad.

People claiming child abuse, long term damage and being to young to make this decision, when really what decision is being made?

To dress up in girl's clothes and maybe being called a girl's name?

It is no more child abuse, nor will cause long lasting damage, then a child pretending to be a pirate, an astronaut, a soldier.

Having outrage over it and wanting it to be stopped, is the equivalent of stopping a child wearing a pirate hat and carrying a wooden sword and telling them. "hey kid you are to young to know what being a pirate is and what it entails, so i am going to have to take away your sword and hat and you are just going to have to not pretend to be a pirate."

Funny thing is most people on this thread would probably see the absurdity of doing that, but when parents let a child dress as the opposite gender, suddenly it's not absurd.

And lets face facts, at that age the only decision being made is what clothes they want to where and how they do their hair, that is all.

Having self righteous, self manufactured outrage at it, is just making mountains out of molehills and is ignorance at it's finest. And I suspect is rooted in general dislike of transgender people in general.

Just my opinion though

a reply to: Liquesence

I was eight when I first questioned my birth-sex assignment.

I wished more than anything that I could be a boy so I wouldn't be kicked out of certain games in the neighborhood and could compete at the athletic level I always wanted to. It was hard playing soccer on the playground and doing a really great job of it, no problems whatsoever, until someone pointed out "Hey, you're a girl you can't play on this field. Go play with the[ i]girls."

Well shoot, the girls soccer field was slow and boring and there wasn't any action going on over there! What the heck man? Just because of my gender I can't kick ass anymore? I simply could not understand the gender division idea. You you can keep up, get on the field!

I remember months of staring in the mirror lamenting myself , feeling horrible I wasn't a boy. I was a total tomboy but I still wasn't accepted anywhere. The boys didn't want to play with me, and the girls didn't like me. I didn't want any specific genitalia or anything....I just wanted the respect and camaraderie that I never seemed to find with females at that age because of my personal interests at the time.

But you know what?

If gender reassignment was an option back then and I made the transition at that age....I would have missed out on so many beautiful experiences later on in life. I would have missed all the joys of growing up as a birth-female, and finally moving to a school district where the female athletes were awesome. I would have missed out on so many wonderful memories and I would be sitting here abjectly miserable and/or dead by now had I changed my assignment.

I can't imagine a child of three being aware of all the beauty they might miss out on later in life as a result of their birth sex.

I know female to male transitions aren't as common as male to female, but still....I wish people wouldn't rush into just swapping over their children so casually. Sometimes there are reasons that aren't readily apparent during times of struggle and alienation that rectify themselves later on in that persons life experience. Being a guy isn't easy, I'll concede that much. It's a lot more demanding than being female and maybe this child isn't prepared soul-wise and mentally to deal with those demands. It's entirely possible.

I know the transition is easier the younger the candidate is when the process begins, but....sometimes we become stronger and better people by learning to just deal with the cards we were given when we came into this world.

Such a complicated issue and I try to be sympathetic.

That's just my perspective.

Really, a decision like this is none of my damn business anyway.
Not my child, not my body.

But there it is.

a reply to: prisoneronashipoffools

Very well said, Prisoner. Thanks for bringing some reason into this discussion and have a star from me for your thoughts. Even I tend to get sucked into and over think these things and your clear simplification and example should make sense to everyone.

I've stayed away from this.

But.

Hardly the age to start talking about gender identity.

This is another example of guppy parenting.

I would have to meet the kid to believe they were aware enough to know about such things and whether or not it was appropriate to do anything.

But IMO let the kid grow up a bit ya?

For a country full of bible-thumping Christians who like to espouse that we all have souls, everyone sure is pretty adamant that there's no such thing as a soul landing in the wrong shell (body) for a lifetime.

I don't get people like that. Either it's certainly possible god F's up & sends a soul down to the wrong flesh house, or it's part of someone's ol' teaching plan (another thing people like to blabber about) And yet,when it comes to someone being sure to their very core that their soul is at the wrong address, it's brushed off like "Pfft, god doesn't mess up, you did."

a reply to: prisoneronashipoffools

You have some valid points, and some you're missing the mark.

"I want to dress up like a pirate" because I like pirates, or even "Arrrr! I'm a Pirate!" (says the 3 year old) is a LOT different than "I was born a pirate, that's who I am" and parents acquiescing "Ok, you can live your live as a pirate."

a reply to: prisoneronashipoffools

Your manufactured outrage about other people's manufactured outrage is outrageous. Of the manufactured kind. What impact does somebody else's manufactured outrage have on you as a person?

None.

See how that works? A spade is a spade, regardless of who sees it.

originally posted by: SubTruth

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: Liquesence

These parents should be ashamed of themselves. I wonder if the gay community supports this? Putting adult concepts and expectations on a 3 year old is pathetic and shameful.

You speak as if the "gay community" has some common thought or special insight into supporting this. Why would they?

Heck, the last thing in the world I would want is for a kid to be encouraged to be transgender. It's not something I would wish on anyone and do tend to agree that up to a certain age, traditional roles and behavior are what should be encouraged by a very young child's parents. I would change my tune though if we were talking of a child between five and seven years of age and even then would not be all that comfortable with it without the parents consulting professionals experienced in this area.

Assume much......I asked a simple straight forward question.......I wonder if the gay community supports this?



How does this simple question imply they are for or against it? You make a point of saying why would they support this.......Lets hear what the gay leadership has to say about it first.......See the irony you are actually the one assuming not me........

Gay leadership? Are you kidding with this? and as far as 'gay community', being gay or lesbian doesn't give you access to some kind of hive mind or some crap. Everyone would have their own opinion, the same as straight people.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I would have to meet the kid to believe they were aware enough to know about such things and whether or not it was appropriate to do anything.

Interesting :-)

We would have to assume that the parents have not only met their kid - they've watched them grown into this little person. Three is young - but 3 year olds gravitate towards certain things. They've also made their way to three from the terrible twos - where no is not only an annoying part of their developing sense of self - it is an absolutely necessary part of them claiming a certain amount of autonomy for themselves

Are they taught these things - or are they natural choices? Identity is huge - we're born and grow into ourselves - three is not too young to think

If it was your small child insisting (and more than just insisting - way beyond playing make believe) they were something you believe they are not - would you then insist they conform to their obvious gender and what you think they are?

I think that letting a kid live the identity they choose naturally would do the least amount of damage in the long run. If it is just fantasizing and play - that would become obvious soon enough

You know, I reread the article linked in the OP then watched the video and read the comments I didn't the first time and may have a slightly different opinion? Had the parents strongly refused to let Jack identify and experiment as Jackie, the consequence one way or the other may have equal significance as allowing it? This would be interesting to look at again in five or six years.

One comment left me a bit puzzled:

Christian (the dad) says. "Then puberty, and dating, and the challenges will be like a very steep curve".

Do you get the impression he thinks Jackie is going to hit puberty and start menstruating then worry about his sweet daughter dating or is he saying that something will have to be done to keep Jackie from having to go through Jack's puberty? If the latter is the case, is dad prepared for what probably will happen next? I was unclear on all this but probably being obtuse or it's just crappy journalism?

The dad seems pretty certain this isn't a phase but from the article, I'm not so sure they've thought their cunning plan all the way through or left the door completely open for Jack to come back? I suspect they would though. I understand them wanting to support their child be whatever they want to be but being transgender is no picnic in the best of circumstances or regardless of how acceptable it becomes. I see why this is such a hot button topic. I, of all people, should be like "yay, this is a wonderful thing" but I have my concerns. Others may feel differently which is completely understandable.

I don't remember much before the age of five and don't have any way to fill in the blanks. I know my mom was pretty tuned into things as I got older but I wonder if at three or four my parents had any indication of who I would ultimately grow up to be? If they did, I doubt it went over too well in the 1950's. I myself know it didn't go over too well in the 1960's either. FWIW, I did not have influence from sisters or brothers and was raised in a caravan by gypsies.

(not really on that last part)

So what happens if little Joe decides at 3 he's a girl, so we let him "transition" to Josefine? Then one day, Josefine grows up and hits puberty and realizes she's attracted to girls. Do you now say that Josefine is gay?

Is it just barely possible that we allowed Josefine to screw up? Maybe Josefine was just a regular little boy instead of a lesbian trapped in a boy's body, but since we must now validate everyone's reality instead of deciding that there is indeed one objective one for everyone like we used to ... we have actual chaos. Josefine could grow up identifying as Chinese Asian, too. Are you going to validate that reality of his/hers?

So now we have a person running around who tells everyone she is an Asian Chinese lesbian who was born a white male, but that's the chaos moral relativity and subjective truth bring us to, and the so-called experts just nod their heads.

Back in college, my husband used to joke that he was a doubly dyslexic lesbian trapped in a man's body. That USED to be a joke, nowadays, it would be a hate crime or at the very least hate speech. This is how far we've fallen and how far society has decayed.



South Park intended this to over the top parody. Sadly, this episode (Episode 901) is becoming all to real. It also features Khyle's quest to make himself black so he can be a basketball player. Anything familiar?

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Kali74

"Probably", "likely", "most likely", all of that is just guesswork. We don't KNOW any of that.

I know if my kid looked sad and said "I'm not supposed to be a boy" I would ask a hell of a lot more questions than "are you happy?" as I'm driving to the store for ponytail holders.

lol

a reply to: ketsuko

So now we have a person running around who tells everyone she is an Asian Chinese lesbian who was born a white male, but that's the chaos moral relativity and subjective truth bring us to, and the so-called experts just nod their heads.

Well - to be honest - this is the part of this that interests me the most

What's it to you?

Is your definition of reality more important than mine? And more importantly still - should my opinion or yours be more important than that of the individual that says they are what they are? If they're not causing anyone else harm - why can't a person define themselves?

If you argue that you're worried they will harm themselves if you permit them to carry on in this way, are you prepared to take responsibility for the results of your coercion - even if it's out of love?

Transgender kids have a high rate of depression and suicide. Do you think that's because they choose to be depressed - when all they would have to do is choose to be the person everyone else agrees they should be?

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: Kali74
The child isn't getting hormones or having any physical changes to her body. Obviously it was more than just curiosity and wanting to play with her sisters things. Children know very early what gender they are... 99% of the time it's just 'well duh I have a vagina and I'm a girl, even if I like to cut my hair short, wear boys clothes... I'm a girl'.

Then there's kids, even at three, clearly unhappy with their physical gender and behaviors manifest that go beyond wanting to wear the opposite sex clothing and play as the opposite sex. I see zero wrong with letting a three year old 'boy' identify as a girl.

I disagree completely, as having been a complete "tomboy" I turned into an extremely feminine woman after puberty. Many changes in the body and mind about that age.

Me too except I still have my tomboy side, but never thought of myself as anything but a girl, I think these things are being planted in these child's minds.

I have no problem with Asian Chinese lesbians born a boy from transsexual Translyvania.

What seems to be yours?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Shamrock6
My kids are over twice his/her age and barely know what they want for breakfast nine times out of ten.

A three year old has their gender all figured out?

Wow.

That's sort of what I was thinking. Ours went through a phase where he thought he was Iron Man for a while.

mine was a ninja Turtle

originally posted by: Nyiah
For a country full of bible-thumping Christians who like to espouse that we all have souls, everyone sure is pretty adamant that there's no such thing as a soul landing in the wrong shell (body) for a lifetime.

I don't get people like that. Either it's certainly possible god F's up & sends a soul down to the wrong flesh house, or it's part of someone's ol' teaching plan (another thing people like to blabber about) And yet,when it comes to someone being sure to their very core that their soul is at the wrong address, it's brushed off like "Pfft, god doesn't mess up, you did."

I understand the point you are trying to make but Christians don't think like that because it is not Biblical, that would be more aligned with Buddhism.

Maybe, I don't even know, maybe that is NA doctrine.