Maths uses intentionally cryptic and vague language in its curicculum? (Poll)

Math is like any science or even a trade or profession. It has its own language which is universally understood. It has nothing to do with any particular language and should not. It needs to be the same no matter where you are or what language you speak.

I think were a person gets into problems is in not having a bottom up understanding. Trying to jump in midstream is bound to be very hard.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Well theres mathematical formula and a specific glossary of terms, so yes in a way it does have its own language...

But its presentation is more what I'm getting at...

Yes, its like a profession or trade, but its also like an art... It has its own wisdom, its own philosophy... It has an essencence independently of how it is applied, unlike many trades or professions...
But as a system or measuring... Without using tangible examples, the subject looses its meaning, and learning the concepts becomes harder, and harder to remember.

Theoretical mathematics is amazing, but just like most things in this life, not everyone will be good at it. Also, not everyone learns the same way, some of us easily grasp how mathematics is currently taught. Changing it completely to something else is not the solution.

a reply to: TycoonBarnaby

Well I feel I have put some pretty good arguments in favour of why it is the solution, if you would care to go back to page one, and see my reiteration of those points in my above post, to read them.

Dissapointing how little anyone seems to be picking up on my points from page 1 actually.
Seems some people just like to post to sound intelligent and then dash in a puff of self satisfied smoke and mirrors. The wizard elite is up to no good.

a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

I read your points before I posted.

In my experience teaching mathematics, a common complaint from students is: "When are we ever going to use this is in real life?" So then I give them word problems modeling situations in real life (as best you can when teaching the basics of mathematics) and students complain: "Ugh, word problems!"

The problem with applying mathematics to something tangible all the time is that one first needs to learn the language before they CAN apply it. You wouldn't ask someone to write a short story before teaching them the alphabet.

a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

I think the reason is that they don't fully understand why the maths works either.

And so what you get is a teacher who teaches memorized formulas, and how they work, instead of a teacher who teaches why they work - which is what actually needs to be understood: the why.

e.g. Be honest with yourself, do you know why a negative times a negative equals a positive? Were you ever actually taught why?

But the problem is not limited to just maths - it is all over the place - almost everyone confuses knowledge with understanding.

a reply to: TycoonBarnaby

Well that's too abstract... It's no more tangible than the formulae in their textbooks...
What I mean by a tangible object... Is a mathematical object... Such as a sphere... with which numerical data can be worked with on in whatever way is requird. Bascially anything tangible from the real world that you can draw numerical data from ... So that a tangible link is made between the world of actual objects and the concepts used to measure them... Or express mathematically however the data needs to be interpreted and going back and seeing how that is relevent exploring possible applications for the data... Maths is research...
But for teaching core maths, the simpler the object the better... Like shapes...

I know it is done to a degree... But I'm talking more about the way there isnt much of it in the advanced stages... And it becomes even more necessary in my opinion 5o include tangible objects in more abstract mathematics...

Think about it...

a reply to: TycoonBarnaby

Well that's too abstract... It's no more tangible than the formulae in their textbooks...
What I mean by a tangible object... Is a mathematical object... Such as a sphere... with which numerical data can be worked with on in whatever way is requird. Bascially anything tangible from the real world that you can draw numerical data from ... So that a tangible link is made between the world of actual objects and the concepts used to measure them... Or express mathematically however the data needs to be interpreted and going back and seeing how that is relevent exploring possible applications for the data... Maths is research...
But for teaching core maths, the simpler the object the better... Like shapes...

I know it is done to a degree... But I'm talking more about the way there isnt much of it in the advanced stages... And it becomes even more necessary in my opinion 5o include tangible objects in more abstract mathematics...

Think about it...

a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

Unintentional post deleted.

a reply to: Bleeeeep
Yes and the difference between wisdom possessed talked about and wisdom applied appropriately.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
Math is like any science or even a trade or profession. It has its own language which is universally understood. It has nothing to do with any particular language and should not. It needs to be the same no matter where you are or what language you speak.

I think were a person gets into problems is in not having a bottom up understanding. Trying to jump in midstream is bound to be very hard.

This exactly. You don't learn math words from a glossary, although you do learn English words to describe math concepts, but math is a language unto itself.

It is just like any language. You have to learn the rules and formulas. Then before you know it, you are thinking in math instead of english.

Fortunately today just about any rule or formula is available. Calculators that can do all the hard stuffs, are available. An old TI-89 can ace Calculus 3 for you if the prof let's you use one.

Hell, there's probably an app for that.

All it takes is practice.

Don't give up.

My math professor in college put the ti-92 to shame. He wrote out 9th dimensional calculus like he was doodling butterflies. It probably should have inspired me, but it really put me off altogether. Ego crushing.

PS We used the pacesetter books IIRC for AP Calc in high school, and they were all real world data sets that led you to discover the formulas and rules. They were very effective.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
I was born with a broken MATH thing that PHDs couldn't figure out ALL I know is I fall asleep when I try hard to get it and I can't retain it.
NO ONE knows who diagnoses the issue either.

Have a buddy who'd made it all the way to E6 without anyone outside the group figuring out he had dyslexia. Not only did he read numbers out of sequence, he'd say them out of sequence if he wasn't concentrating. You had to be real careful if John was calling in fire missions...

Lol im all for this thread descending into anecdotes for now I'm done.

Firstly, mathematics is not "the science of measuring." Mathematics is a method used to describe phenomena and explain it.

Secondly, mathematics is not described by a language; it IS a language. Mathematics is a very precise, detailed language to allow it to be used in the first point.

Thirdly, there's no such thing as "maths." A "math" does not exist as a noun of any kind. Math is simply a shortened form of mathematics.

If you really want to understand higher mathematics (as in differential equations, complex number systems, vectors, Bessel functions, etc.) then you really need to start with simple, basic calculus. Look into Khan Academy (just google it, it's late) and start watching math videos, starting wherever you feel comfortable.

Remember that learning math is like building a block wall. If you leave out a block, the next row will be weaker. Leave out enough blocks, and the whole thing will come tumbling down.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Bedlam

I don't know timestable and can't do long division.
I CAN call for fire and remember a series of numbers short term.
I set the IFF frequency KIKers in blackhawks while serving in Korea.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Firstly, mathematics is not "the science of measuring." Mathematics is a method used to describe phenomena and explain it.

Secondly, mathematics is not described by a language; it IS a language. Mathematics is a very precise, detailed language to allow it to be used in the first point.

Thirdly, there's no such thing as "maths." A "math" does not exist as a noun of any kind. Math is simply a shortened form of mathematics.

Wrong every count...

Rest was ok

originally posted by: funkadeliaaaa
I don't know if its just my overly high expectations or something, but I expect things to be laid out clearly to me in a language that is easy to understand when learning anything actually, but particularly challenging and mentally demanding subjects like mathmatics.

Without you giving an example it's difficult to really reply. I've had challenging math classes before and I've had easy ones. A lot of things come down to how it's taught. Take Trigonometry for example, you can sum up virtually the entire subject on 1/4 of a sheet of paper, and less if you just focus on the primary uses of it but schools spend entire semesters on it, obfuscating things.

I felt it actually lowered my intelligence ...not the subject itself, but how its presented and taught by the academic establishment in this and I am assuming other english speaking countries.

When I was in high school they brought in a whole bunch of special experts from around the country to test my math abilities, they were convinced I was a prodigy because I could be given formulas and visualize the answers without ever solving the steps. I passed all their tests but I was adamant it was only because a particular teacher of mine taught in a style that just clicked with me (had her for all 4 years). With other teachers it never happened. I can still do it today, but to a lesser extent, with simpler subjects like probability.

Where math starts to get fun, is when you get to start inventing your own uses for it rather than prederived formulas.

Where math starts to get fun, is when you get to start inventing your own uses for it rather than prederived formulas.

Yeah, I need to get off my lazy butt and go do some of that right now.

It's interesting when you're trying to solve something that there isn't a clearcut pre-done way to solve, and may have no solution anyway.

If you want tangible examples every non-rigorous non-analysis textbook will have literally thousands of story problems relating the math to real life examples. "Susie is has a spherical balloon 6 inches in diameter and is inflating it at 50mL/second. How big will the balloon be in one minute?"

But further, part of math is being able to describe abstract things. For instance there isn't anything tangible to relate an N-dimensional sphere to, but boy does analysis love to use them to prove things. I mean, they try and relate them to 3-D balls, but... it's not the same. "For every N-dimensional set with a 2-norm less than x, the set is in the N-dimensional ball b and is connected."

And to Redneck's point, math is literally a language. You can accept that or not, but it is and most people can neither speak nor read it. I think one of the main reasons a lot people get so frustrated is because they have to study a lot of tiny little building blocks memorization style before they can even read a mathematical sentence and understand what it actually says.

But when you do speak it you can look at a chalkboard full of math and, if the professor actually planned it out and didn't erase stuff and go all over the place, you can read it from start to finish and understand a whole hell of a lot more than you could ever easily convey through english.

I work and study in education, I teach and I have to be able to also teach Maths and English.

Due to PISA and reports such as the Leitch review, the government has decided that to improve national standards, LLN (Language, Literacy and Numeracy) and ICT should be in every lesson and many occupations, academic and vocational courses require level 2 (A-C GCSE level) Literacy and Numeracy or these being obtained.

The wording on some of GCSE Maths questions is often debatable as it requires an understanding of language before the Maths can be done, unlike some older Maths test which just alluded to an equation directly.

Maths can be taught creatively though, however there are curriculum constraints that sometimes doesn't easily facilitate creativity in the classroom.

Maths is fascinating IMO, so much of the Universe is explained through equations.