Autopsy finds Freddie Gray suffered 'high-energy injury' in Baltimore police van: report

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: butcherguy

BG I will tell you one piece of information I look forward to hearing . After the first stop when Mr. Gray was taken out of the van re-cuffed and put in leg irons. He was then placed headfirst on his stomach into the van . Most of the time when your legs are re-shackled by police they hogtie you by connecting your hands and legs behind your back . ( that's what I want to know his exact position )

It has been my contention since Mrs. Mosbys press conference . That while Mr. Gray was facedown on the floor with his hands and legs cuffed behind his back. Officer Goodson gave him a break job which caused him to slide headfirst into the partition between the transport cell and the driver .

I have wondered about that too.
There is a cell phone video of the stop at Baker and Mount Streets where Mr. Gray was shackled. The video doesn't show a lot.
Here is a link: Baltimore Sun
I thought this part of the article was interesting:

Shortly after Gray's death, police posted fliers around the area asking residents with video of the incident to come forward. A police news release on April 16 stated that when the van departed from Mount and Baker streets, video evidence indicated that Gray was "conscious and speaking." It is unclear which video police are referring to; neither the cellphone video taken with Gross' phone nor the security camera initially released by police reveals Gray speaking or moving. Gross said police never reached out to her for the cellphone video footage and she has not spoken to them.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Edumakated

He also said that his words were taken grossly out context. He said he heard banging, but not that he thought it was gray.
Big metal cages with moving parts going down a road at 30 mph+ are genreally noisy.

Yeah, because the snitches get stitches culture in the hood wouldn't make him back track on his words after it was put in the media that he was in the van with Freddy Gray.

Nope, he said he was pissed that they were trying to twist his words.

Sorry if we are going to his words as fact then it works both ways when he comes out and says that his words were being twisted and that wasn't what he said at all.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: butcherguy

Mr Allen stated that he could hear Mr Gray was "intentionally trying to injure himself" when Mr Allen was in the van.

By the time Allen got into the van Mr gray was well enough to be "intentionally trying to injure himself".

He also refuted that statement since.
Even so, could he see Mr. Gray?
Is it possible that Mr. Gray was suffering from involuntary movements due to his nearly severed spinal cord?
If you follow the timeline, Mr. Gray was unresponsive to the police officers when Donta was put into the van.

Mr Allen first told the media he never talked to investigators then later admitted to talking with them when he was presented with the police report.

As it stands though his account of Mr grays actions are on the record.

He heard noises, and jumped to the conclusion that the noises were made by Mr. Gray. He did not see Mr. Gray hitting anything against anything... much less his head. The noises could have been made by Mr. Gray's feet striking something. Kicking your feet against something typically does not sever your spinal cord.
An attorney would tear that up in court.

Mr Allen mentioned in particular head banging and kicking. While he could not get a good look is fairly safe to say kicking noise was coming from the bottom and the head banging was coming from the middle to upper section of the van. Along with other noises Mr gray was making.

Also safe to say that shoes hitting metal make a different sound than say your head hitting metal.

While Mr allel does not seem to be the smartest guy these fundamental differences in noise are hard to argue.

a reply to: butcherguy

I would trust the local reports from the Baltimore sun about their own vans more so than an article written by ones who do not live in the same state.

It could very well have had seatbelts in it but from conflicting local reports (Baltimore sun) and other Baltimore officials I would go with the local source.

At a quick glance at other parts of the nyt article they are still citing state law that Mr grays knife was legal but we all know now that it was in fact illegal under city law.

a reply to: alphastrike101

Mr Allen mentioned in particular head banging and kicking. While he could not get a good look is fairly safe to say kicking noise was coming from the bottom and the head banging was coming from the middle to upper section of the van.

Yet, it has been mentioned by you earlier that Mr. Gray may have fallen, so neither yourself or Donta Allen know where Mr. Gray's head was, if he did fall. It was also mentioned earlier that he may has been repositioning himself in the back at some point.

Also safe to say that shoes hitting metal make a different sound than say your head hitting metal.

Is it?
What type and brand of shoes was he wearing?
What qualifications do you have that make you an expert on shoes, metal or noises? (these are questions that would be brought up in court)

For all we know, there could have been a cop in the back with Mr. Gray slamming his head into the metal divider. I have the same proof of that as you do proof that Mr. Gray hit his head on anything.... None.

a reply to: alphastrike101
I have yet to see where an official source said that there are prisoner transport vans in Baltimore PD that have no seat belts, so you have no grounds to say that the particular van in question did not have seat belts.

Anyway, when the police commissioner says that there was no excuse for not belting him into the seat, I think if the van had no belts,, that would have been brought up by now..... at the very least by the FOP or police union representatives.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Well at first Mr. Allen told the media that he never said anything to the investigators. He later changed that story when he was presented with the police report with his account.

What he says to the media is not always what court records will show.

a reply to: butcherguy

Except there was a witness in the van who described what he sounds were going on.

As I said before Mr Allen did mention kicking and head banging. It does not matter what shoes he had.

Location of the noise and differences in the noise are what got Mr Allen to go on the record as saying that Mr gray was kicking and banging his head among other noises Mr gray also made other noises that were not specific in the police report.

Unless you think Mr Allen never talked to investigators he is on the record as saying gray was kicking and banging his head.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: alphastrike101

Yet, it has been mentioned by you earlier that Mr. Gray may have fallen, so neither yourself or Donta Allen know where Mr. Gray's head was, if he did fall. It was also mentioned earlier that he may has been repositioning himself in the back at some point.

That was a possibility that the medical examiner had to say about how the "high energy injury" could have happened.

That could have happened while or after Mr gray was kicking and banging his head.

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: alphastrike101
I have yet to see where an official source said that there are prisoner transport vans in Baltimore PD that have no seat belts, so you have no grounds to say that the particular van in question did not have seat belts.

Anyway, when the police commissioner says that there was no excuse for not belting him into the seat, I think if the van had no belts,, that would have been brought up by now..... at the very least by the FOP or police union representatives.

We already went over this. The Baltimore sun did an article and I already posted it on page two.

touch.baltimoresun.com...

" Because of Gray's death, Llewellyn said, the department is considering adding new features —possibly padded safety bars, traditional seat belts, or a video monitoring system.

In Baltimore County, suspects arrested on the street usually are driven to a precinct in a police cruiser, where they are placed in seat belts, police spokeswoman Elise Armacost said. The county also owns 10 vans that are sometimes used, none of which have seat belts for prisoners, she said."

a reply to: alphastrike101

Also safe to say that shoes hitting metal make a different sound than say your head hitting metal.

How? Bangs are bangs, I doubt you could ever tell the difference.
You do understand those trucks are not the smoothest rides and those metal cages just make noises with no one in them right?

Mr. Allen could not see gray, he has zero idea what the noises were.

You are making huge assumptions based on a few words that the man him self said were taken out of context.
Not sure how that works.

a reply to: alphastrike101
Your link still doesn't work.
The one on page two doesn't either.

It looks like they give a few options of how someone in a moving vehicle can get hurt without a seatbelt but that same Baltimore Sun also reported that most of the vans used do not even have seatbelts.

In your post on page two, you said that most of the vans used do not even have seatbelts.
That would indicate that some do.
Again, if the van did not have seat belts, why was it dispatched to transport a prisoner. That would violate a department policy that prisoners must be secured with seat belts for transport.
And if the van did not have seat belts, I would expect the police union to be vocal about the problem that it would present to officers that were expected to transport Gray in a vehicle that violated department policy.

a reply to: butcherguy

Sorry for the tardiness of this reply I am not getting many of my replies via the system I have to go looking for them .

The first stop after his arrest was Baker and Mount Streets . It was between that stop and the next stop when Freddie grays injuries occurred .

I will paraphrase Mrs Mosbys statement " mr. Gray was removed from the van flex cuffed and leg irons were applied . He was then placed on his stomach headfirst into the van . it was at this point Freddy gray received a neck injury. Caesar Goodson then stopped at Mosel Street ( The unreported stop ) to check on Mr. Gray's condition ". That is when the lady pretty much laid her case out. Yet one thing I noticed from the mainstream media was that, that part of the statement was never mentioned in any of their discussions. I know reporters have proven their selves dumb but there is no way the reporters, news anchors or any of their talking heads could missed that part of her press conference because if you listen to her it was her case .

The total silence from the key point of her statement to me reeks of manipulation .

Here's her press conference listen between 5:15 and 5:16 for the pertinent part .



The people that bother to listen to that one minute of the press conference will come to basically the same conclusion I have on what happened in that van.

a reply to: Greathouse

The people that bother to listen to that one minute of the press conference will come to basically the same conclusion I have on what happened in that van.

Everyone should listen to that from 5:15 on.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Dissimilar objects make dissimilar noise when banged on the same control (ie. metal).

Apparently his testimony to investigators does not match your post.

As I said before he first said that he never talked to investigators unrolled he was presented with the report of his account.

a reply to: butcherguy

Here is the headline.

"Most police vans in Baltimore region lack seat belts - Baltimore Sun"

If my link does not work for you it should be simple to Google.

The police spokeswoman Elise Armacost has come out and said seatbelts do not exist in the vans in question.
The quotes were right from that article.
" none of which have seat belts for prisoners, she said."

Maybe vans in other states and even other counties have seatbelts. Maybe vans that do not hold prisoners have seatbelts.

a reply to: alphastrike101

What you have here is proof that the van driver failed to follow general orders by proceeding 5 separate times without securing the prisoner with seat belts.

originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: butcherguy

Here is the headline.

"Most police vans in Baltimore region lack seat belts - Baltimore Sun"

If my link does not work for you it should be simple to Google.

The police spokeswoman Elise Armacost has come out and said seatbelts do not exist in the vans in question.
The quotes were right from that article.
" none of which have seat belts for prisoners, she said."

Maybe vans in other states and even other counties have seatbelts. Maybe vans that do not hold prisoners have seatbelts.

Okay....., a directive was given requiring Baltimore police to secure prisoners with seatbelts. Even if the van Freddy was in lacked seatbelts The same officers were at fault for not obeying the directive they should have refused to put him in there. He is a prisoner held against his will under their supervision they and no one else is responsible for his safety .

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Edumakated

Except for the fact that there were two other prisoners in the van with him who indicated nothing of the sort.

Why do you say that? Was it confirmed somewhere?

I'm not doubting you... I wondered the same thing here. But I never saw it confirmed anywhere.

I think what you call facts, and the rest of society call facts, are different things. Like, Depraved Murder different.

Yes it was confirmed there were two others in there with him. One of the other prisoners is on the record saying that he could hear Mr gray banging his head trying to injure himself.

That same prisoner first denied that he said anything to the police but then admitted he did talk to investigators and told them ie could hear Mr gray banging on the other side of the van.

Yes, at this point it is very clear that you are saying that Freddie Gray killed himself to make the police look bad.

That is apparently your argument.

Unbelievable.

I am only bringing up facts of the matter.
Conclude what you want but the facts are the facts.

Your definition of 'facts' doesn't seem to fit the legal definition in Maryland.

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: alphastrike101

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Edumakated

Except for the fact that there were two other prisoners in the van with him who indicated nothing of the sort.

Why do you say that? Was it confirmed somewhere?

I'm not doubting you... I wondered the same thing here. But I never saw it confirmed anywhere.

I think what you call facts, and the rest of society call facts, are different things. Like, Depraved Murder different.

Yes it was confirmed there were two others in there with him. One of the other prisoners is on the record saying that he could hear Mr gray banging his head trying to injure himself.

That same prisoner first denied that he said anything to the police but then admitted he did talk to investigators and told them ie could hear Mr gray banging on the other side of the van.

Yes, at this point it is very clear that you are saying that Freddie Gray killed himself to make the police look bad.

That is apparently your argument.

Unbelievable.

I am only bringing up facts of the matter.
Conclude what you want but the facts are the facts.

Your definition of 'facts' doesn't seem to fit the legal definition in Maryland.

Such as?