Losing my Religion

originally posted by: Megatronus
I did read the holy books when i was a bit older and i have actually read the bible a few times but i have been left scratching my head everytime.

Reading the bible as a non-believer is really interesting.

You really have to believe to think it makes any sense.

a reply to: Klassified

What are your thoughts Ugaritic Text which use the name EL for God.
It seem clear, the Hebrew use of the term change it's meaning from the
father of many gods (i.e., the 50 son's of EL) to one true God of Israel.

The discovery of the Ugaritic archives in 1929 has been of great significance to biblical scholarship, as these archives for the first time provided a detailed description of Canaanite religious beliefs, during the period directly preceding the Israelite settlement. These texts show significant parallels to Hebrew biblical literature, particularly in the areas of divine imagery and poetic form.

a reply to: Annee

As Penn would say, best way to have someone become atheist, have him read complete bible and question what he is reading.

They did story some time ago, Penn and Teller - The Bible - Fact or Fiction?.

a reply to: misskat1

Some of us get mad about it, and others just label it and go on with our lives realizing that God is still God just like we did when we had the epiphany that there really isn't a bearded man in the clouds.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Megatronus
I did read the holy books when i was a bit older and i have actually read the bible a few times but i have been left scratching my head everytime.

Reading the bible as a non-believer is really interesting.

You really have to believe to think it makes any sense.

I think that is also why many times bible passages are quoted instead of reading the whole story as one.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: Annee

As Penn would say, best way to have someone become atheist, have him read complete bible and question what he is reading.

They did story some time ago, Penn and Teller - The Bible.

For sure.

I tried many churches on my quest of understanding.

A pastor picks a specific scripture - - then proceeds to tell you what it means.

Or you're told to read a specific scripture - - then you're told what it means.

Everyone has to think the same. So you are told what each scripture means.

The sad part is - - you believe what they tell you.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Megatronus
I did read the holy books when i was a bit older and i have actually read the bible a few times but i have been left scratching my head everytime.

Reading the bible as a non-believer is really interesting.

You really have to believe to think it makes any sense.

I think that is also why many times bible passages are quoted instead of reading the whole story as one.

No that is usually done because it's much easier to construct the narrative you prefer out of a single sentence rather than taking the whole in context.

Most people A.) want to believe what they want to believe about it on both sides of the belief debate and B.) Absolutely suck at reading comprehension.

I don't believe in the Abrahamic Reichs one true god, but I am a deist and I do believe in one true god.

The way I look at it is this:

If God is all things, every cat, dog, squirrel, atom, photon, lepton, angry, happy, abstract, happening, not-happening event and thing ever. Then God is the sum of all things which I think every monotheistic believes in some form.
If god is the sum of all things then the only proof you need for god to exist is that something does. Since I'm pretty sure I exist and so does everything else, then like gravity a think God is a "proven" theory. The sum can easily be infinite since this is just a mathematical proof. It could be just some astronomical number too, but either way there's a sum and that is god. The phrase "one above all" does a good job of poetically framing it.

The second Portion to the theory is based around base morality. Since existence is all it takes for there to be a god, I think there's an easy step to the idea that existence is good. Since life (consciousness) is needed to verify existence, and life exists, then life is good, and the morality of existence is sided with the sanctity and fruitfulness of that life.

I don't think it matters if you believe in god as long as your respectful protective and beneficial to life.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: Annee

As Penn would say, best way to have someone become atheist, have him read complete bible and question what he is reading.

They did story some time ago, Penn and Teller - The Bible.

For sure.

I tried many churches on my quest of understanding.

A pastor picks a specific scripture - - then proceeds to tell you what it means.

Or you're told to read a specific scripture - - then you're told what it means.

Everyone has to think the same. So you are told what each scripture means.

The sad part is - - you believe what they tell you.

Understand that this is the same Penn who also recently said in an interview that gay weddings had to do with gay sex which is extraordinarily untrue.

I like Penn and Teller, but they aren't exactly what I would call definitive authorities on this or many other subjects.

And if you are going to get upset with the idea that pastor guides a congregation on what a scripture might mean, then why are you telling us we ought to take Penn and Teller's word for it? Isn't that sort of the same thing?

originally posted by: misskat1
Im still deprogramming, It might take another 50 to undo the brainwashing. So, Ive spent a vast amount of time wallowing in emotions that just suck, Fear of Gods reprisal if I question what I was taught, guilt and shame for thinking I could think with my own brain about it, ANGER for wasting sooooooo much time etc. I vacillated between putting my fingers in my ears and la la la dont want to hear it, and barely hanging onto the Hem of Jesus garment. I fervently clung with all the faith I could muster, regardless of the truth that was hitting me between the eyes like a hot iron.

What has helped you get through this process?

First, talking to people... close friends... does help.

Yes, I've been there myself. When you determine to follow the truth
where ever it will lead you... you are on your way to points unknown.

Just remember, no one knows what they do not know.
However, it is best to trust your own experience with
SOURCE and not rely on the dogmas of organized religion.

We are all feeling our way in the dark, but regardless of what
Belief Systems (BS) we have been programmed with, and must
now unlearn and let go, one thing remains: our connection to
SOURCE. That has not, and will not change.

My study of the Ugarit Text was the last straw for me, it broke
the false authority of the Hebrew Bible wide open. I now see
money and morality (church and state) as false authority, these
are the tools of manipulation and control (which I now reject).

I am now free to connect to SOURCE ...without false authority.
I am now free to trust my own experience... to make SOURCE personal.
I am now free to express myself without FEAR ...of external opinions.

It is a good place to be.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: Annee

As Penn would say, best way to have someone become atheist, have him read complete bible and question what he is reading.

They did story some time ago, Penn and Teller - The Bible.

For sure.

I tried many churches on my quest of understanding.

A pastor picks a specific scripture - - then proceeds to tell you what it means.

Or you're told to read a specific scripture - - then you're told what it means.

Everyone has to think the same. So you are told what each scripture means.

The sad part is - - you believe what they tell you.

Understand that this is the same Penn who also recently said in an interview that gay weddings had to do with gay sex which is extraordinarily untrue.

Those are my words and thoughts - - - and real experience.

Not Penn's.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: TheCretinHop

Of course, what if science is wrong???

Dawkins was asked here the same question, his answer is reminder that is better not to ask if you are not ready to hear the answer...

He truly is an amazing man isn't he? One of the most educated individuals on earth, when it comes to the evolutionary process, yet he has the ability to break basic logic down in such a simple way that anyone can comprehend it.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Megatronus
I did read the holy books when i was a bit older and i have actually read the bible a few times but i have been left scratching my head everytime.

Reading the bible as a non-believer is really interesting.

You really have to believe to think it makes any sense.

I think that is also why many times bible passages are quoted instead of reading the whole story as one.

No that is usually done because it's much easier to construct the narrative you prefer out of a single sentence rather than taking the whole in context.

Taking things out of context changes the meaning of them.

Most people A.) want to believe what they want to believe about it on both sides of the belief debate and B.) Absolutely suck at reading comprehension.

Most people aren't researched enough on both sides of the debate to make an informed opinion.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Understand that this is the same Penn who also recently said in an interview that gay weddings had to do with gay sex which is extraordinarily untrue.

I like Penn and Teller, but they aren't exactly what I would call definitive authorities on this or many other subjects.

And if you are going to get upset with the idea that pastor guides a congregation on what a scripture might mean, then why are you telling us we ought to take Penn and Teller's word for it? Isn't that sort of the same thing?

It is unfortunate state of media here in USA that for news you have to go to CC (Comedy Central - Daily Show) or for this mater, for objective view of religion, you have comedians cover it, such as late George Carlin, Pen And Teller, Bill Maher, Jim Jefferies... and they all bring very important questions but through fun and jokes.

There is value in those videos, well made observation, and according to latest polls, it shows slight decline in religion. Not at speed that I would like, but still, progress is progress...







Sorry guys to use videos, but if picture is thousands words, this videos are worth books...

No that is usually done because it's much easier to construct the narrative you prefer out of a single sentence rather than taking the whole in context.

Taking things out of context changes the meaning of them.

Master of the paraphrase?

Most people A.) want to believe what they want to believe about it on both sides of the belief debate and B.) Absolutely suck at reading comprehension.

Most people aren't researched enough on both sides of the debate to make an informed opinion.

I fail to see where what you said invalidates what I said.

a reply to: SuperFrog

The fact remains.

If we should NOT let pastors teach us about religion, then we should NOT be letting anyone else, including comedians, do it either.

a reply to: ketsuko

It wasn't supposed to invalidate what you were saying. It was supposed to just give another angle to look at it from.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: SuperFrog

The fact remains.

If we should NOT let pastors teach us about religion, then we should NOT be letting anyone else, including comedians, do it either.

Because I watch Penn and Teller - - I'm not a critical thinker?

As Penn would say: "BS"

a reply to: misskat1

I still believe in a Higher Power, and I am only beginning to grasp that IT can not fit into a Religious Box. But, the truth shall set you free!!!!!

This could be a very long story, stretching from 1972 accepting Jesus to the present. I know that's a long journey and shows how slow I am.

First state the insurmountable hurdle:

"Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matt 7:23.

In my heart and mind, no supposed hell fire punishment could ever compare with the thought of hearing those words. The ultimate failure to know some one and be known! This is personal in a way that reaches to the deepest depths of personhood. The one companion that I've thought and felt with me all along my life's path says a thing like that to me?

Haven't I felt the spirit with me? Haven't I witnessed miraculous things in your name? Yes, I have. What could this possibly mean then? ( this short paragraph took decades to write ).

There is a story in Greek mythology concerning the origin of Athena, goddess of wisdom: She came out of the head of Zeus. She became a person in her own right. Wouldn't Zeus then be left empty of wisdom?

In 1996 my spirit came out of my head and expressed her desire to be free. I allowed it. She is free. And I am witless. I ask her what she knows of Jesus. Nothing is the reply. How can that be? ( this paragraph took 19 years to write )

I don't know Jesus. If I claim to, then I am a liar. Simple as that. As horrifying as that is in the pit of my being.

What about Jesus then?

Be kind to strangers.
That's the only advice I can offer.

Some people get their inspiration from music, some from graphic art, some from mythology, some from natural sciences, some from fiction. I found The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman to be of great help.

a reply to: ketsuko

I think he was agreeing with you.

And I just want to thank everyone, I actually feel better, and I have tons of new stuff to explore.

Several times Ive started to reply to comments and then discovered other people have answered better than I could have. Its very good to be a part of a community, and not to feel alone in my quest.