The origins of information vs. The origin of species

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: fabritecht

Here's my question to you: do you think if some other species evolved; let's say dolphins. They became land dwellers and eventually a homosapien equivalent in terms of awareness, tool use, language, awareness of their mortality, etc... would they have come up with the god concept as well? Or would it only ever be us humans that come up with the concept because we're the perfect creation of god as the bible puts it?

I would first have to assume they're not already that equivalent.
Do you know they are not?
Why would anything evolve and just come up with such a concept?
HEARS a much better concept for you to ponder.
When the river makes noise, it's because something is in it.

I would say in some aspects no they are not equivalent to the cognition we exhibit. I don't see cars and boats being made or driven by dolphins. I also don't see bibles being written or sold by dolphins. So there is a stark difference. Of course, dolphins have no need for boats or cars, and maybe neither do we. But the fact is, we have the ability to manifest those; meanwhile dolphins do not. Let's not forget about the internet. Of course all of those came about because people empirically and scientifically brought them into existence.

I imagine we would come up with such a concept because we fear death and that which we do not know. And it makes it easier on us if we think we know.

I don't quite understand your pondering. What's the noise you speak of? Is it a metaphor? Because that one went over my head. Am I the noise? What's the river? Or am I the river? See that's the problem with unscientific claims, they are difficult to interpret if the meaning doesn't make it over from the speaker to the listener. I've pondered it and still don't get it. Why don't you explain to me what you get out of it.

a reply to: fabritecht

I would say in some aspects no they are not equivalent to the cognition we exhibit. I don't see cars and boats being made or driven by dolphins. I also don't see bibles being written or sold by dolphins. So there is a stark difference.

A stark difference in physical ability! We exhibit through cognition and the physical
ability to make our cognitions reality. So what you're really asking is if dolphins
became humans would they evolve with a concept of God. Thinkabout the nonsensical
implications of such a question. If we were dolphins we might still have the same
cognitions but I for one can inform without any doubt there would be no G-D internet.

I imagine we would come up with such a concept because we fear death and that which we do not know. And it makes it easier on us if we think we know.

And this completely perposterous. If the greater pop of humanity feared
death so much that they needed a crutch? No one would get on airplanes
or even go outside. In fact most people, most of all youngsters believe
they are invincable. So give that one up and I don't believe what you said
about being with me on anything. So your willingness to lie is showing.

fabritecht that's a good one. Didn't slip by Randyvious tho pal.

You should maybe try to be the person your dog thinks you are.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: fabritecht


A stark difference in physical ability! We exhibit through cognition and the physical
ability to make our cognitions reality.

So there's dolphins and chimpanzees out there philosophizin' the meaning of life? They're also mentally thinking of building spaceships, but they are physically limited? What does a dolphin's "inner voice" sound like? Does it resemble coherent thought and planning. Does it resemble sound-to-meaning mapping?

I imagine we would come up with such a concept because we fear death and that which we do not know. And it makes it easier on us if we think we know.

No one would get on airplanes
or even go outside. In fact most people, most of all youngsters believe
they are invincable. So give that one up and I don't believe what you said
about being with me on anything. So your willingness to lie is showing.

fabritecht that's a good one. Didn't slip by Randyvious tho pal.

When you get on an airplane don't you do your "sign of the cross?" Is that because you fear that you maybe might die and you're willing to ask for protection from that fear of ceasing to exist?

I said I was with krazyshot on everything he said, not you. I haven't lied. I think we know who's being dishonest here Randy

a reply to: fabritecht

I said I was with krazyshot on everything he said, not you. I haven't lied. I think we know who's being dishonest here Randy

We? You got a mouse in your pocket? It's obvious who's being dishonest.

So there's dolphins and chimpanzees out there philosophizin' the meaning of life?

I said I don't know they aren't? If evolution is your fabrication, do you know that they don't?

Thought you had me in lil crossfire didn't ya?

We? You got a mouse in your pocket? It's obvious who's being dishonest.

Yes. We randy. You and I. Plural pronoun for when I am with another person. In this case you. No mice in my pockets. Yes it's obvious you and I (we) know who's being dishonest.

I said I don't know they aren't? If evolution is your fabrication, do you know that they don't?

Thought you had me in lil crossfire didn't ya?

In order for them to think about the meaning of life they would need a complex language randy. A complex language which includes words for "life" and "existence" and "philosophy" and even "god."

So unlike you, I don't think they are worried or even thinking about life or god. Because they don't have words to associate them to what you feel when you say "god." Which to you is probably a nice wet sensation in the pants.

You're not in a crossfire randy, you're in the middle of a nuclear blast. If I could embed, I would post a YouTube video showing an atomic bomb test blast going off right now.

a reply to: fabritecht

I would appreciate it if would keep your mind off whats in my pants
and stick to the topic.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: fabritecht

I would appreciate it if would keep your mind off whats in my pants
and stick to the topic.

There was about 10+ more lines of text besides that small jab at you, but I guess as long as it's not fitting the narrative of your OP then I must be rambling.

Also, my dog thinks I'm God. So I might as well keep acting like it.

a reply to: fabritecht

Oh so dogs have more cognition than dolphins and your latter
highly dishonest slip in addition of chimpanzees.
Then I guess WE know who the smarter one is then.
Between you and your dog that is.

yucyuc

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: fabritecht

Oh so dogs have more cognition than dolphins and your latter
highly dishonest slip in addition of chimpanzees.
Then I guess WE know who the smarter one is then.
Between you and your dog that is.

The humor seems to pass you like the breeze through the trees.

Yea randy, my dog who eats his own fecal matter and would die if I didn't buy his food and feed him and take care of him, is smarter than I am. You're just shooting in the dark now.

Why don't we talk about your topic instead. Ok god exists, now what? How has that revelation made our lives any better in the last hour? It hasn't help feed starving children. Homeless people still roam the streets. But I'm sure glad god exists and is waiting to forgive me if I confirm my undying belief in him when I die.

a reply to: fabritecht

Ok god exists, now what?

I knew you'd warm up to me!

How has that revelation made our lives any better in the last hour? It hasn't help feed starving children. Homeless people still roam the streets. But I'm sure glad god exists and is waiting to forgive me if I confirm my undying belief in him when I die.

If it's more a fact than just a revelation. tThen the blame for staving children
and homeless people is even more upon us. Not less. Anyone smarter than
their dog could figure that out. We are responsible for this world of ours.
That's the first and most easily interpreted lesson the Bible gives us. But people
of gigantic intelligence beyond Gods fail miserably at turning it all around.
Nothing but crap baby diapers to me tho.

Ok god exists, now what?

I knew you'd warm up to me!

I don't have a problem immersing myself with the spirits, or Jesus, or gods. I know I can discern fantasy from reality.

If it's more a fact than just a revelation. tThen the blame for staving children
and homeless people is even more upon us. Not less. Anyone smarter than
their dog could figure that out. We are responsible for this world of ours.
That's the first and most easily interpreted lesson the Bible gives us. But people
of gigantic intelligence beyond Gods fail miserably at turning it all around.
Nothing but crap baby diapers to me tho.

Do you know what facts are?

Ok, then according to this God and bible, the meek shall inherit the earth. So why would I go out and help starving children or homeless people? Look at how meek they are! They will inherit the earth for God's sake. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Anyone smarter than a larvae would see contradictions like these and start thinking to themselves. Yes we are responsible for this world of ours, WITH or WITHOUT the existence of a god. Just because God exists shouldn't be the reason we should care more.

a reply to: fabritecht

Ok, then according to this God and bible, the meek shall inherit the earth. So why would I go out and help starving children or homeless people? Look at how meek they are! They will inherit the earth for God's sake. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

You draw a contradiction based on your own interpretation of
who the meek are? That's just total ignorance beyond recognition.
Perhaps you should have a conversation with a larvae? You might
just win an arguement.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: fabritecht

Ok, then according to this God and bible, the meek shall inherit the earth. So why would I go out and help starving children or homeless people? Look at how meek they are! They will inherit the earth for God's sake. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

You draw a contradiction based on your own interpretation of
who the meek are? That's just total ignorance beyond recognition.
Perhaps you should have a conversation with a larvae? You might
just win an arguement.

And you draw facts based on your own interpretation of who the meek are? I guess your interpretation far exceeds my abilities to interpret meekness.

Oh you might mean the meek of spirit then. Those lacking spiritual richness and qualities in their life. Those must be the meek. Or wait, you haven't even told me your interpretation of what the meek are. Because you're probably going to be shooting as much in the dark as I am. Because it's all INTERPRETATION. There is no TRUTH in the words themselves. I am currently debating a larvae sized consciousness, it's harder to win than you might imagine.

a reply to: fabritecht

And you draw facts based on your own interpretation of who the meek are? I guess your interpretation far exceeds my abilities to interpret meekness.

Why am I having this conversation? With someone who
cant even keep track of who said what? Carry on by yourself
I assure you it won't be any different.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: fabritecht

And you draw facts based on your own interpretation of who the meek are? I guess your interpretation far exceeds my abilities to interpret meekness.

Why am I having this conversation? With someone who
cant even keep track of who said what?

Who are the meek to you?

originally posted by: fabritecht
I'm with you on all of this.

Here's my question to you: do you think if some other species evolved; let's say dolphins. They became land dwellers and eventually a homosapien equivalent in terms of awareness, tool use, language, awareness of their mortality, etc... would they have come up with the god concept as well? Or would it only ever be us humans that come up with the concept because we're the perfect creation of god as the bible puts it?

It's possible. Think about it like this. If you trace the history of religion back through the ages, you start to see a pattern. That pattern is that religion follows the general rules of evolution. So it IS possible that a dolphin species could invent a singular god, but it is also just as possible that it doesn't happen. The idea of a singular god proliferated through the world due to conquest, bloodshed, and forced worship from all THREE Abrahamic religions.

If these three religions had listened to their own tenants and were peaceful, it's possible that they'd be conquered, subjugated, or something else and such religious idea would die out. History is fickle, one thing slightly different and the WHOLE world would be different.

I would think that maybe those factors may lead to the need for a creation of a religion and creator, because the fear of knowing you're going to die can be overwhelming for some. Coming together and holding each other up through community bonding and ceremony must be better than not doing so. Especially like when I said, we have this awareness condition.

Well part of the reason we fear things is because of how our brains evolved. If we return to your dolphin premise and suggest that dolphin brains evolved slightly differently and aren't as susceptible to cognitive dissonance, it is possible they never invent religion at all. Because they'd dismiss it shortly after it would be proved wrong.

originally posted by: randyvs
You draw a contradiction based on your own interpretation of
who the meek are? That's just total ignorance beyond recognition.
Perhaps you should have a conversation with a larvae? You might
just win an arguement.

Something about not pointing out a splinter when you have a plank in your eye?

You drew a flimsy at best connection between "sabbath year" and the dust bowl and claimed it was a scientific fact in the bible with pretty much ZERO evidence to support that notion, and then changed the subject. Plus you quote mined me and cut off the end of my quote that clearly said "about god or miraculous events" to take my quote out of context. Shame on you committing the quote mine fallacy after all these years of folks correcting you. I'd figure some of that would have sunk in by now, but I guess not. Quote mining is pretty much only committed by folks that have an agenda.

So you are claiming that the dust bowl was caused because farmers used the land 7 years in a row and didn't give it a year off to rest? That is absolutely ludicrous, and no it's flat out false. Do you realize how many produce companies would go under if they didn't plant for an entire year? Nature constantly plants and reseeds each year and does not need a year off to rest. That is one of the silliest things I've ever heard and you called it a scientific fact. You wonder why folks get so combative with you, you say quite a bit of false things about science and your logic is fallacious.

No offense, but I could have linked to the dust bowl to Zeus and probably done a better job than you did up there. The dust bowl was caused by a combination of factors including record temperatures, lack of rain, and now many scientists believe the jet stream changed its course leading to all the dust storms. No, it's not because the earth is tired and needs to rest every 7 years. The earth hadn't needed to rest for the millions of years prior to human agriculture, so why would it suddenly apply now?