Should Western Leaders show up for Russia's celebration of the Great Patriotic war?

a reply to: Shadow1024

Because Poland didn't sacrifice over 25 million of its people for it. If Russia can come to western countries celebration,are we so little,petty,and insecure that we can not do the same? This would only go to show that we lack the mental maturity to 'rule the world'.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
We owe it to each and every person who gave their life fighting the tyranny that was Nazi Germany. The Soviets were our allies and the truth is, if it wasn't for them, the war could have had a totally different outcome.

Do you mean their impact after 1941? Or maybe that if Russians hadn't backstabbed Poland in 1939 there had been some small chances of French with help of Brits launching in late 1939 an offensive to take advantage of main German forces being engaged in Poland for a few months?

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Shadow1024

Because Poland didn't sacrifice over 25 million of its people for it. If Russia can come to western countries celebration,are we so little,petty,and insecure that we can not do the same? This would only go to show that we lack the mental maturity to 'rule the world'.

Well, recently Russians are coming also to Ukraine...

If you just like heavy body count (in case of SU caused mostly by Stalin treatment of his subjects as expendable), then technically speaking Poland had the highest percentage loss of population. (16% vs. 14%)
en.wikipedia.org...

You know, that under those 25 mln you are counting non Russian citizens of the SU (Especially Belarusians and Ukrainians)

a reply to: Shadow1024

You cut it away you want,but 25 million people lost their lives over the war. Poland didn't lose anywhere near that. There are times in human history where people have put aside their differences to come together for the greater good of mankind,WW2 was one of those times.

All these years later we have a bunch of simian half wits in the wrong positions 'acting' like they are so special,that they can act anyway they want,do anything they want,and treat others anyway they want. They need to put on their 'big boy pants' and 'act' like part of the human race again. In both world wars Russia was on the same side as us,in that moment in time,we stood together. This celebration is about that moment in time. Perhaps Stalin shouldn't have backed us like he did,then we could have lost a lot more people in the war and been squalling our eyes out about to this day. As it is,Russia took the brunt of losses for the rest of the western world. 70 years later they get spit on over it.

If I were Russia, even if on the 'same side' as the US, I wouldn't lift a finger to help. Let the inmates from the asylum lose their own people en mass next time,see how the western world likes it. They are ingrates that can't even act adult enough to pay tribute to those that died for the rest.

Now I want you to tell me,no matter how old you are,while growing up,did you ever hear of our officials calling other world leaders name? Did you ever hear of them insulting each other? Did you ever hear of diplomats using interviews to undercut other countries,then go back and try to 'talk' to them and work out something? We wrote the book on diplomacy and yet we aren't even following by its rules! We need adults in the right positions now,not these fools and court jesters we have.

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Shadow1024

You cut it away you want,but 25 million people lost their lives over the war. Poland didn't lose anywhere near that. There are times in human history where people have put aside their differences to come together for the greater good of mankind,WW2 was one of those times.

You don't mean the period 1939-1941 when they put aside their differences with Nazi Germany in their joint world conquest?

All these years later we have a bunch of simian half wits in the wrong positions 'acting' like they are so special,that they can act anyway they want,do anything they want,and treat others anyway they want. They need to put on their 'big boy pants' and 'act' like part of the human race again. In both world wars Russia was on the same side as us,in that moment in time,we stood together. This celebration is about that moment in time. Perhaps Stalin shouldn't have backed us like he did,then we could have lost a lot more people in the war and been squalling our eyes out about to this day. As it is,Russia took the brunt of losses for the rest of the western world. 70 years later they get spit on over it.

If by "we" you mean "Americans" then you fought in WW1 against Red Russians (on side of White Russians).

Stalin has changed sides when he was back stabbed by his ally Hitler.

"Backed as he did" you mean in exchange for you letting him in Yalta to occupy East Europe in exchange?

If I were Russia, even if on the 'same side' as the US, I wouldn't lift a finger to help. Let the inmates from the asylum lose their own people en mass next time,see how the western world likes it. They are ingrates that can't even act adult enough to pay tribute to those that died for the rest.

Please, learn some basic history. Stalin had no choice because he had Axis invasion. Actually he had that even before you had your Pearl Harbour attack.

What Stalin could do when Hitler no longer wanted to share loot with him? I doubt that Hitler was in mood for grateful peace proposal.

Now I want you to tell me,no matter how old you are,while growing up,did you ever hear of our officials calling other world leaders name? Did you ever hear of them insulting each other? Did you ever hear of diplomats using interviews to undercut other countries,then go back and try to 'talk' to them and work out something? We wrote the book on diplomacy and yet we aren't even following by its rules! We need adults in the right positions now,not these fools and court jesters we have.

Of your officials? I remember reading about Regan calling Quadaffi as "Mad Dog", while ex. Iran refers your country as the "Great Satan". But I have no idea how is relevant here?

originally posted by: DimithaeThey are ingrates that can't even act adult enough to pay tribute to those that died for the rest.

Because of my family history I with this sentence in a bit awkward position. Part of my family was on the list to be murdered by Stalin, but luckily Hitler launched Barbarossa operation what saved my family. Shall I celebrate sacrifice of German soldiers? Or maybe I'm ungrateful to them?

Honestly speaking I would celebrate none of those totalitarian regimes, even though feel same pity for their conscripts.

a reply to: Shadow1024


I'll take this moment to post this as it came up on the news today,apparently China is willing to put aside its animosity even to an former enemy nation,(and one that there is still ongoing issues with for them).

news.yahoo.com...

As far as your family being on a 'list' to be killed,well,Stalin was a butcher as well,wasn't he? Failed policies,deliberate murders,harsh methods. Yes Stalin was no angel and was believed to have killed more people than Hitler. Is this celebration called the great Stalin war? No,it is the patriots war. It is giving respect to those who died fighting Nazism.

I know its now popular to back up Nazis,or so you would think with the rise once again of such evil. But we see more and more of it in Europe and here in the US. It should never be tolerated. And yet we see it,and there are those that would sweep it under a rug and deny. We can not go forward and live in a peaceful world,until we put the past behind us,honor those that have fought for what they were told to fight for,and live lives with mutual respect for others. You will not have that in this current atmosphere.Things have to change. The US must learn that instead of putting those in power that they WANT to deal with,they must learn to deal with those in power. That means having something to offer them that will make them want to come to the table.But you won't get them there by name calling and insulting other countries.

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Shadow1024


I'll take this moment to post this as it came up on the news today,apparently China is willing to put aside its animosity even to an former enemy nation,(and one that there is still ongoing issues with for them).

news.yahoo.com...

I'm absolutely for a reconciliation, but it requires end of occupation of Eastern Ukraine. Otherwise I see it as great power eagerly showing people in some smaller state how worthless their lives are. And surprisingly trying to pretend moral high ground.

As far as your family being on a 'list' to be killed,well,Stalin was a butcher as well,wasn't he? Failed policies,deliberate murders,harsh methods. Yes Stalin was no angel and was believed to have killed more people than Hitler. Is this celebration called the great Stalin war? No,it is the patriots war. It is giving respect to those who died fighting Nazism.

But shouldn't we then pay the same respect to all those who died fighting communism?
(yes, I also see a problem here - either being at verge of glorification of nazism or using double standards)

I know its now popular to back up Nazis,or so you would think with the rise once again of such evil. But we see more and more of it in Europe and here in the US. It should never be tolerated. And yet we see it,and there are those that would sweep it under a rug and deny. We can not go forward and live in a peaceful world,until we put the past behind us,honor those that have fought for what they were told to fight for,and live lives with mutual respect for others. You will not have that in this current atmosphere.Things have to change. The US must learn that instead of putting those in power that they WANT to deal with,they must learn to deal with those in power. That means having something to offer them that will make them want to come to the table.But you won't get them there by name calling and insulting other countries.

Really except maybe contemporary Russian mixture of nationalism and militarism where do you seriously see anything even remotely resembling Nazism?

OK but so far Putin seeks some teritorial gains. What do you want to offer him? You are willing to offer him a bigger piece of Ukraine or a part of let's say Alaska? Alaska is out of question? Putin wants to have his triumph in Moscow, so should faced being boycotted by all civilized countries. He already cheated Merkel enough times to show how likes to play with Western politicians which he considers as peace seeking suckers. (BTW: she learnt)

a reply to: Shadow1024

So let me get this straight,you think that Putin wants Ukraine? That Russia if it wanted it couldn't have taken it already? Putin may want a relationship with Ukraine,after all,Russia has been propping up their economy forever now,but that doesn't mean he wants the country. If that was the case,instead of loaning them money he would have taken it.

As far as Nazism is concerned,read the news. Everyday I am seeing where a synagogue has been attacked,Jewish cemeteries desecrated,and Jews feeling threatened to the point of thinking about moving to Israel. You don't have to walk around with swastikas all over you to be a Nazi.

As far as the West goes, I know that all of our leaders are such peace seeking people that would never ever think of over throwing anyones government,or try to disrupt elections or do anything nefarious. But the facts speak for themselves.

China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Libya 2011*
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014
williamblum.org...

Jeepers. I really don't know what to think!

Just don't let another Olympics get near the place.

Wasn't that weird?

A surfeit of tweets about yellow water, filthy rooms, unlivable conditions from Amerikan VIPs

And then a rather strange (wtf strange) trickle that became a torrent of apologies about the same tweets as the Olympics came to an end
(huhnh they disconnect the phone…)

A few minutes later troops with no insignia are crashing into Ukraine
And Crimea is stolen, with no end in sight from this Oligarch Billionaire Madman whose only fear is losing power because then what will happen to his money? 70 billions will break anyone's soul even if you really did earn it

And let's not forget the pimp palace that he had built for himself at a cost of 250 millions. Just shameful.

Even he was ashamed at himself. He had it transferred to one of his underlings, and not because it's gaudy. Not because the average Russian is choosing between bread or sausage at the markets. No. He is afraid that it's just too honest of an expression, of his honest evaluation of himself. If nothing else about him frightens us, perhaps this is worth keeping in mind. That now he acts, too.

He carries all he lacks. I'll bet he could use a back rub.

Just keep the Olympics away from there. What he did to his country and his people after that was just plain nuts.
The man has finally cracked. A cold war started from nowhere but one man's empty heart. Like a coup on one's own head.

As for what the western leaders should do…I think it's probably best that they all go bowling. Vaseline bowling.
It would be safer than encouraging another invasion by lending this guy any creedence. He be hurting. He want empire, and that costs blood. Let's not abide.


And….I bet he'd never return the creedence


a reply to: Dimithae

# 396

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: Shadow1024

So let me get this straight,you think that Putin wants Ukraine? That Russia if it wanted it couldn't have taken it already? Putin may want a relationship with Ukraine,after all,Russia has been propping up their economy forever now,but that doesn't mean he wants the country. If that was the case,instead of loaning them money he would have taken it.

Russia wants to keep it as failed, ungovernable state, under Russian sphere of influence. Ukrainians thought that they are independent country so Russians started their invasion.

If you would read official Russian ideologist you'd know that they have much more far reaching dreams that merely Ukraine:
en.wikipedia.org...

Russians lent money to saved their pro-Russian president, Yanukovych. It was supposed to be cheaper than invasion.

As far as Nazism is concerned,read the news. Everyday I am seeing where a synagogue has been attacked,Jewish cemeteries desecrated,and Jews feeling threatened to the point of thinking about moving to Israel. You don't have to walk around with swastikas all over you to be a Nazi.

The main threat to Jews, are as recently shown in Paris, are Muslims. But I don't see how their religious fundamentalism is in any way ideologically related to concepts of "Wohnraum" or "racial purity".

As far as the West goes, I know that all of our leaders are such peace seeking people that would never ever think of over throwing anyones government,or try to disrupt elections or do anything nefarious. But the facts speak for themselves.

China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Libya 2011*
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014
williamblum.org...

Which facts? Russian attepts to capture West Berlin were West fault? WTF??? Or Russian invasion on Ukraine??? Downfall of Quadaffi? Sadam raid on Quwait? Or maybe Serbian war crimes? Castro dictatorship?

You just make a list of all possible conflict of absolutely unrelated reasons and blame them on the West? Good. But if you need a scapegoat and said that Nazism become recently trendy why not blame it on Jews?

Anyway, why China from 1949? Their civil war was waged at least from 1927, while at 1949 it mostly extinguished.

As far as the West goes, I know that all of our leaders are such peace seeking people that would never ever think of over throwing anyones government,or try to disrupt elections or do anything nefarious. But the facts speak for themselves.

China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Libya 2011*
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014
williamblum.org...

Anyway, if treat this list seriously, it leaves me with a puzzle. If any gov collapse is American mending, how the hell it was possible that before 1776 some govs also collapsed? Including assassination of Julius Caesar and end of Roman Republic?

I agree with everyone that says they should go. This parade honors those that died. I'm American but have lived in Russia. I love the Russian people, I have my whole life. I lived in St. Petersburg and met someone who lived through the Siege of Leningrad. Her story is unbelievable. I met veterans, they are nearly all past on 70 years later now. They go to war memorials for wedding celebrations. Every little village/town has an eternal flame/war memorial. You cant meet a Russian whose family was not affected from this war. They lost millions and millions of people.

A few years ago the Russians (Putin) invited all the allies to march through Red Square with them. (i cant get the videos to get on this site, idk why)

www.youtube.com...
an interview with some American soldiers in the parade
www.youtube.com...
UK
www.youtube.com...

Ill stop with this, День Победы.
www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
This is what happened last time after WWII finished when the Allies appeased the Soviet Union...

en.wikipedia.org...

The Baltic states were seized and dominated for 4 decades. 'Sanctions' were used back then too, just like in Crimea today.

Amazingly enough Russians still learn in their text books that the Baltics held 'revolutions' and joined the Soviet Union after WWII. Pretty funny actually, except it's true.

umm those baltic states were handed over to the soviets by the allies at the Yalta AKA crimean conference

no matter how they want to spin it

originally posted by: AdamuBureido

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
This is what happened last time after WWII finished when the Allies appeased the Soviet Union...

en.wikipedia.org...

The Baltic states were seized and dominated for 4 decades. 'Sanctions' were used back then too, just like in Crimea today.

Amazingly enough Russians still learn in their text books that the Baltics held 'revolutions' and joined the Soviet Union after WWII. Pretty funny actually, except it's true.

umm those baltic states were handed over to the soviets by the allies at the Yalta AKA crimean conference

no matter how they want to spin it

I think he means a bit earlier period, 1940. At that time they were annexed by the SU, to be later captured (liberated ?) by Third Reich in 1941, captured (liberated ?) back by the SU in 1944 and granted in Yalta to Stalin by the West.

Sanctions? Not specially. Stalin however almost had his oilfields bombed by the West after he invaded Finland at end of 1939.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Shadow1024

look it up on wiki, keeping in mind the bias, lots of divvying up, which is what WWI was about, by the way.

lol
getting on topic

dont think 'Murica & Company will be going to any celebrations commemorating the crushing of the Nazis,
what with the aforementioned being their successors in all but name...

i think Putin knows this and is jerking the Wests chains

Apparently its confirmed Western/European nations are not attending.


consortiumnews.com...
www.telegraph.co.uk...
sputniknews.com...