Near Death Experience: A Damaging Lie?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: AinElohim

Almost half of the population is above average intelligence and the other is below average intelligence.

There are over 7.2 billion people in the world.

From my perspective that isn't all that amazing to only get 2.2 billion of them.

2.2 billion is outstanding!

besides India and China aren't on the atheists side anyway, in all actuality China is set to become the largest Christian nation in the world!

India Christian Churches are popping up all over the place and in every Bollywood film (major influence on their society)

But numbers aren't what it's all about... Christians and Hindu's get along just fine regardless as do Christians and Buddhist.

a reply to: Grimpachi

in Bollywood films... and I have seen more than you'll ever want to know about.

The Christian Church is directly connected with the concept of "love" and love marriage.

hence being different than your parents and being an individual who can marry who you love.

---

the concept plays out over and over again in every film... they're HOOKED!

a reply to: AinElohim

Christians and Hindu's get along just fine regardless as do Christians and Buddhist.

What would Gandhi say..

Oh I remember....

Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians - you are not like him.

Mahatma Gandhi

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: AinElohim

Christians and Hindu's get along just fine regardless as do Christians and Buddhist.

What would Gandhi say..

Oh I remember....

Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians - you are not like him.

Mahatma Gandhi

I think Gandhi's exact response when he was asked what he thought about "western civilization" he said that he thought it would be a "great idea"

I'll look into that for you...

PS; I am an American, nothing more... save the Christian label for those who are graced (of which I am not)

a reply to: AinElohim

What you claim and how you post says different.

Also...


According to your previous account that isn't true at all.

a reply to: AinElohim

well one has to admit that a global phenomenon of 2.2 billion adherents to his philosophy is a pretty good next submission?

The taste of the masses never pleased me personally. Because Justin Beiber is popular doesn't make his music good.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

The latest fad or flesh pursued by "the masses", will always fade. Knowing, loving and serving Jesus Christ is no fad. 2000 years of Christianity point to this as fact. One look and you're hooked.

The Beebs vs Jesus? Apples and Oranges. More like apples and galaxies. Poor analogy.

a reply to: Ignatian

It's not a poor analogy. I was pointing out the argumentum ad populum.

I have known rational former skeptics become believers in...something (not religion) after a NDE.
One genetic engineer and nanotechnologist, who was very much a skeptic simply by nature talked to me about when he got into an accident and "died" for awhile, and his experience.
He knew full well the possibility of oxygen deprivation, neuralchemical reactions, optic nerve closing, etc...yet he explained to me that even with knowing all that, his experience convinced him that that experience was the actual real experience, and he would actually believe the reality in front of him today is the fake one.

I guess it would be like a worm suddenly developing an eye for a moment and seeing color and the great world around them, then the eye removed and him trying to explain what he seen to his other worm friends who simply don't have the language or association of sight in order to even understand this stuff about "light" and dimensions and stuff...there is only touch.

So...hmm...I have no belief really..belief means you sort of know without proof of something, and I don't. But, other far more intelligent people than myself have witnessed something that their rational brain simply cannot disclude, and I accept their testimony enough to...be open to, and even hope for, something more than what I understand as life.

And if there is nothing else, well, it doesn't hurt to consider and hope for it anyhow..but live life for today, and be a good person, simply because the world we live in today really should be a comfortable and good place, and regardless of what happens after, we are here now and only have a small amount of time to make something good and lasting..be it works, memories, or just a decent mindset that is passed on. a smile is contagious and all that stuff.



Does it matter that this kid lied?...meh, I suppose. it muddys the waters of a ongoing investigation into a phenonoma, but it doesn't break it.
Mom has a NDE...and although mom is known for spinning yarns, she has never said a single thing off the original story she told me. Mom is often in story mode, but when she speaks of that, it isn't story, its recollection.

If what is being claimed turns out to be true, then..thats kinda cool...and it will be interesting to realize what our true form is (I reckon some super advanced ancient race that uses these physical bodies to experience this primitive plane of existence...most likely for the same reason we read books, watch tv, play games...entertainment, education, and refreshing our perspectives)

I suppose one important issue to take into consideration is that dying is a process, not a one moment event. Perhaps cases of NDEs are a result of somebody being revived and then able to recall the experience of the brain in its decline?

Having said all this, I've read a lot of research on NDE by P.H Atwater, and am personally convinced there really is validity to this being a spiritually significant experience and am certainly open minded to the theory that people may have glimpsed something of the "other side." That people have been revived and were able to recall visual things they should not have been able to see during a clinically dead state, is quite significant.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: AinElohim

What you claim and how you post says different

This is exactly what the world needs... atheists roaming around telling people if they're Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist enough. Don't take it personally if I happen to think that your opinion doesn't hold much weight on this matter.

According to your previous account that isn't true at all.

Oh man here we go...

I live in a nation where one is allowed to change their mind.

originally posted by: AlmostRosey
I would love to know your thoughts on NDE, and on your ideas regarding survival of consciousness.

The fact that this fellow lied doesn't change the validity of others who are truthful. There will always be a few fakers jumping on a bandwagon for fame or fortune.

I don't buy every NDE that comes along. Like the kid in 'Heaven is for real'. I don't believe that story but am more inclined to think it's a little boy telling his minister father what he thinks the dad would like to hear.

But there are plenty of NDEs that I do believe to be true. People who have heard things and saw things that they couldn't have because their bodies were dead on a slab. I do believe in an 'afterlife'. I don't think it's anything like what people think it'll be.

Link to tons of NDE stories told by lots of different folks

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Argumentum ad populum is a valid argument in certain aspects of our understanding, or lack thereof. You take most of them for granted however, agreeing without even thinking about it. Smarter minds have come before, so why reinvent the wheel? A great example is the theory of electricity, and also the use of language.

My absolute faith that light will appear when I flip a switch, is argumentum ad populum in action. I didn't invent electricity, I have no clue how it works, not do I care to research any of it. Greater minds have come before me, so I defer to their expertise. I simply want light, so I flip a switch. Electricity works because everyone knows it works, and I'll go with the herd.

The use of language. ATS is not a good place to use improper English or poor spelling. There are many grammar nazis who will point out the errors of your ways. You use proper spelling and grammar because it is proper. This is argumentum ad populum, if you're ever called to account why you use proper grammar and spelling.

For me, it's the same with Religion. Many many many biblical scholars have come before me, and for the first 1500 years of Christianity, from the apostles til the Protestant Deformation, The Catholic Church WAS all of Christianity. Along came the heretics and upset the apple cart.

Because there is no way I could ever fully study, much less understand ALL of the Bible in full context, I defer to The Church that Jesus left us, The Catholic Church. I listen to, and follow The Magesterium and Traditions of my faith forefathers...just as I'm told to do in the Bible.

If I were to think I could read and discern all of Christ's teachings on my own, make up my own interpretations, basically swing wildly and blindly at a piñata...I'd be nothing more than your everyday average protestant. I want Truth. The fullness of Truth. And part of that humility, the foundation of wisdom, involves an argumentum ad populum.

Your philosophy sounds like the opposite of argumentum ad populum, which is the appeal to spite. This fallacy holds that because the majority of the population believes something, then I won't. This was my line of thinking as a rebellious practicing atheist.

99.9% of people believed in a flat earth, they were all wrong.

What matters is evidence, not belief.

You hit the light switch because trust it will produce light as it has done many many times in the past for you and many many other people. You do not have to take this on faith as you have a very good reason to think it will happen every time, you have evidence. Same thing with the sun rising in the morning, we don't have faith it'll rise every day as we have a very good reason to believe it'll happen every day. We have evidence....

a reply to: FlyersFan

Awesome link! Everyone should read these stories.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I don't buy every NDE that comes along. Like the kid in 'Heaven is for real'. I don't believe that story but am more inclined to think it's a little boy telling his minister father what he thinks the dad would like to hear.

Agreed, I read that book and thought the same thing, just didn't sound believable. When you read enough books on NDE's you can kinda pick up on the ones that don't pass the sniff test.

a reply to: Ignatian

You're acting like it's a feat of expertise to read a book.

Christianity is a slave morality. Turn the other cheek so your master can hit you a second time.

Grammar and languages are arts and customs, not arguments.