Christian Thread: My opinion on the 12 Universal Laws

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
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Enlightenment is frowned upon by those in power because it frees someone from their oppression. As we know, the bible has been a favorite tool of those in power so I wouldn't put it past them to change the narrative around a bit to make the opening of our eyes a bad thing.

Actually, what you wrote was a great perspective, thanks for that…

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head though, with that last paragraph, because IMO, many of the elements of the story have been flipped turned around or inverted…

Here’s my own take on it…

Man was always living in the knowledge of his divine spiritual connection to God, knowing that he was an eternal spiritual being; anything other than that, is, I believe, the knowledge of Evil IMO…

The serpent represents mans lower aspect, and is what tempted man into his own knowledge, by forgetting or turning away from the knowledge of God; and thus spiritual death (i.e. no longer knowing you are an eternal being), entered, whereby people live only for the flesh, and with it sin, entered the world;

But here’s the thing, that Evil i.e. the opposite of knowing your divine connection to God, is also necessary, to come to complete knowledge of God;

So in a roundabout way, it was actually a good thing, that the serpent did, because it brings understanding and Wisdom; The serpents actions only remain bad, when people stay in the Evil, i.e. by not searching and connecting to God spiritually themselves…

That’s my overall, observational view, of the verses without trying to get too heavily into the literal.

- JC

a reply to: windword

I never said that it is. Certainly, there's a time when it's okay to kick someone in the nuts.

Then how does you kicking your dad in the nuts explain a moral that comes from within and can't be taught? Can't someone just raise their kids to think that its immoral to kick people in the nuts just like a Muslim can raise their kids to think women's face should be covered? That doesn't explain a moral that came from within that can't be taught. Thats why I said its not objectively true that it is an inborn moral. Its a subjective moral for you it has nothing to do with a Moral code written on our souls. If that is your view it simply reduces to nihilism. You simply cannot rationalize your view with reality if you don't reduce it to nihilism . If you think you can lets engage in a philosophical analysis of your ethical view and see if it is coherent with reality and your lifestyle.

Is everyone who doesn't believe in God a nihilist in your mind? I'm an optimist. I just don't believe there exists an objective moral standard that is always true for everyone, all the time.

No. I am tired of repeating the same thing to you. I believe EVERYONE, ALL PEOPLE, know the difference between right and wrong, because I believe God's laws have been written on ALL PEOPLE"s heart. Not just Christians. Not just Muslims. Not just Atheist. Everyone. You don't believe there is an objective moral standard at all. Your view is clear. Everyone decides for themselves what is moral. THIS IS ETHICAL NIHILISM!!! Morals are simply a fabrication of the mind in YOUR world view....not MINE....

Yes. Good to me is what is good to me. I prefer to see the good in mankind and I do see the good. I also see shortcomings in mankind. In my opinion, everything that's bad about mankind comes from the fear of rejection and/or the fear of death.

Ok but if I look at the world through your world view....I have no definition of Good or Bad...they are just useless words....thats why I asked what is Good?

You have said twice now "I prefer to see the Good in mankind....." That statement loses all meaning to me if I look at the world through your lens rather than mine. You can't say you see the GOod... there is no such thing in your world view...there is just your personal preference of characteristics and my personal preference of characteristics....ethical nihilism......

Yes. True morality is informed by each individual's empathy. Those who have no empathy are called psychopaths.

Who are you to tell someone what true morality is?? Morality is subjective remember....who are you to tell them its formed by empathy rather than narcissism??? You claim to believe moral are subective but numerous times throughout our post you have made references to an objective standard that you don't even believe is there ....you have shown your world view to be incoherent with the way you live your life....

a reply to: Joecroft

Knowing both Good and Evil, helps to strengthen your relationship with God, because it makes you aware of the difference between good and evil…instead of just being a robot… Knowing the difference between good and evil is, overall, a good thing, and is what God intended to happen IMO

Now the truth of your view comes out which is nothing new. You are one of those who tries to glorify the serpent by pretending that God created us as these mindless idiots who didn't know anything at all before the fall..

Most Christian denominations believe the knowledge of good and evil, only entered into the world, after Adam and Eve ate from the tree; but according to you, they had some knowledge of it prior!

First I don't really care what an Christian denomination teaches. If it disagrees with the Bible it disagrees with the Bible. I think our issue is we define "the knowledge of Good and Evil" differently. You see it as them first having the ability to understand that their was such a thing as evil and that there was such a thing as good. Which means to me you think they were some mindless idiots who couldn't choose to lie if they wanted to. Thats not the case. They knew the difference between truth and lie otherwise they couldn't speak truth. The thought to lie just never came to them because they resided in fellowship with God who was the very essence of Goodness. Adam and Eve knew Good as they were created with it surrounding them. God never intended for Adam and eve to "know" evil in the sense that they would experience what it was to be evil.

Becuase it’s a story that’s trying to get across an overall point, it’s not meant to be taken literally, word for word…

Genesis 1 the word chyah what does it refer to most frequently in the Bible? Animals that eat flesh. Carniovres existed. Herbivores existed as well...so plant death was a must...God mentions death to Adam, so Adam knew what death was. The moment you just drop a point of the story from your interpretation because it doesn't fit what you'd like is the moment your interpretation becomes invalid.

Well, yes, once the knowledge of evil became known, sin entered into the equation… Although to be fair, one could debate whether being naked is a sin or not a sin…but again, it all goes back to perception, and the ability to judge between the two…

Again you are trying to act as though Adam and Eve were just these mindless idiots...how could Adam or eve ever speak truth if they didn't know what truth was?

Being naked is not sinful. God cannot reside in the presence of sin, but he walked with Adam and eve while they were naked. Its only after their eyes were opened that nakedness became sinful. It is the fallen perception of nakedness that was sinful.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Leviticus 20 10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death. Should we take this at face value as well? Or do you pick and choose what from the OT you choose to believe? Either it's none of it or it's all of it right? At last that's the argument I hear from Christians all the time.

Are you bound by the covenant of Moses? Are you bound by the covenant of Jesus? Are you bound by any set of rules? What ever you are in allegiance with is your law unto you. What is your point?

a reply to: Seede

I'm bound by nothing, I choose to follow Jesus' commands though. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I can't comment on it.

Why do I receive so much hate on these boards? I guess my opinions are a threat so people have to get angry with me. Oh well.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Its not hate. Your views on the Bible are far more distorted than most. So we worry about you.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Distorted according to the official story maybe, but the official story of the bible is like the official story of 9/11, that is it's BS and corrupt. The bible is of this world in every facet. You know, the same world that has a false god ruling it? Yeah, he's the same god as in the bible, a deceiver who requires faith in things that can't be proven or else you're sent to eternal suffering.

a reply to: windword

Oh, I understand that Yahweh thinks we're filthy unworthy sacks of shatt! I don't think much of him either! I also could care less about Isaiah's or Paul's personal self images and self hatred problems. There is nothing healthy about self loathing.

That is your prerogative to think the way you think. I think what you mean is that you could not care less and not that you could care less.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I'm bound by nothing, I choose to follow Jesus' commands though. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I can't comment on it. Why do I receive so much hate on these boards? I guess my opinions are a threat so people have to get angry with me. Oh well.

You are mistaken Enlightened One,
Reading your posts and threads you are very well educated and very knowledgeable. Your points are well taken and you are a worthy debater. Simply because I disagree on some issues with you does not mean I am right. I may very well be as wrong as wrong can be. You may be surprised at the number of stars I give you. I apologize if I seem harsh and bigoted. The OT can at times be very confusing to us and I may not have the right answer myself.

a reply to: Seede

I may be wrong as wrong can be as well. I do not claim authority about anything in the bible and am nowhere near knowing all there is to know.

I used to be a fundamental Christian but found cracks in the foundation of my faith so I began questioning things. One thing led to another and I have come to my current understanding.

One thing I NEVER found cracks in the foundation of are Jesus' teachings on love and forgiveness though. I once abandoned my faith in him because I saw cracks around him, but with time I found my way back to him and his words. I began to realize the cracks were AROUND him and not in his words.

I do not speak against Jesus, if so I speak against my own faith. Jesus' teachings are my foundation.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It is you constant glorification of Satan and dismissal of Jesus work on the cross that makes us think you have had experiences with some form of deceitful demon. This isn't something I would expect anyone other than Christians to notice...

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I am tired of repeating the same thing to you.

Me too!
Does your God judge an individual by what's in their heart or by some list of obscure rules?

I believe that people are basically "good" and everyone wants to thrive. Intellectually, we learn that if we want to thrive, we need to work together.

If you think you can lets engage in a philosophical analysis of your ethical view and see if it is coherent with reality and your lifestyle.

GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN!

Who are you analyse my ethics to compare with YOUR version of reality! Let's get something straight! I gave you a personal example of an important moment in my life when my morals were informed by my empathy. I do not give you permission or authority to examine my personal ethics, morals, lifestyle or philosophies for your twisted demeaning and proselytizing pleasure!

Yes. True morality is informed by each individual's empathy. Those who have no empathy are called psychopaths.

Who are you to tell someone what true morality is??

If you have to pound your version of what is right and what is wrong into someone's mind through indoctrination, then it isn't true morality. True morality is informed from ones own empathy and can't be taught.

a reply to: windword

Does your God judge an individual by what's in their heart or by some list of obscure rules?

Their heart.

Who are you analyse my ethics to compare with YOUR version of reality! Let's get something straight! I gave you a personal example of an important moment in my life when my morals were informed by my empathy. I do not give you permission or authority to examine my personal ethics, morals, lifestyle or philosophies for your twisted demeaning and proselytizing pleasure!

Why would I care if you give me permission or not? In your view of ethics is accurate why should I care about your feelings at all? I also would like to point out I didn't say let me analyze I said let us....

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Glorification of Satan? When have I ever glorified Satan? Jesus accomplished nothing on the cross, there is still death and suffering in the world, moreso today than ever before, so what did he accomplish except nothing at all?

I do not glorify Satan, if anything you do because you glorify a man's death. Who brought death into the world? Satan with his tempting of Eve in the garden. You glorify the work of Satan by glorifying death.

You will never see it though because you believe death is what saved you from eternal suffering.

1 John 3
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

You agree that you sin every day, so you must be of the devil.

If Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil then why do you continue to sin? Those born of God do not continue to sin.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Servant of the lamb? Hardly, you are a servant of sin which is of the devil.

Don't tell me I glorify Satan, Jesus' own words betray you.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

In your view of ethics is accurate why should I care about your feelings at all?

Because of EMPATHY.

Do you have any, or do all your morals and ethics have to be taught to you through rote indoctrination, books and lectures?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Now the truth of your view comes out which is nothing new. You are one of those who tries to glorify the serpent by pretending that God created us as these mindless idiots who didn't know anything at all before the fall..

I said God uses Satan throughout many parts of the Bible; seems that part went completely over your head…And you clearly didn’t read my response to Enlightened1, where I outlined my perspective very clearly, in this post.

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
First I don't really care what an Christian denomination teaches. If it disagrees with the Bible it disagrees with the Bible.

When a person (i.e. myself) sees it largely as metaphorical, they still have to discuss it, using some literal perspectives, but if the person I’m discussing it with, doesn’t even go with the standard Christian view…then what am I to do….

The majority of Christian denominations believe that the knowledge of Good and Evil only entered, after Adam an Eve ate from the tree, and that also death entered the whole world…that’s the majority Christian view…so you should care about it…

In fact, I challenge you to set up a thread, explaining to all the other Christians why they’re wrong, and you’re right…and see if your beliefs stand up to scrutiny…

I’m only pointing out that your view is in the minority here…I’m not prepared to argue either point myself, because I don’t see the verses as literal…

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Which means to me you think they were some mindless idiots who couldn't choose to lie if they wanted to. Thats not the case.

But again you clearly didn’t read my last reply to enlightened, if you had, you would have see my perspective clearly…

Plus I never said they were mindless idiots. I’m saying that it is not meant to be taken literally, and that it’s a story, about our lost inner divine connection to God, and describes how that loss, led to sin entering into the world…

In one sense, knowing both Good and evil, is a good overall thing, because it helps us know the difference, and then hopefully people follow the light and the goodness etc… It’s only bad/evil, when people stay in the mind-set of the serpent…IMO

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Genesis 1 the word chyah what does it refer to most frequently in the Bible? Animals that eat flesh. Carniovres existed. Herbivores existed as well...so plant death was a must...God mentions death to Adam, so Adam knew what death was. The moment you just drop a point of the story from your interpretation because it doesn't fit what you'd like is the moment your interpretation becomes invalid.

But I don’t see it literally, so my overall point is not invalid at all…I was only pointing out that that is how the majority of Christian denominations see it i.e. that death to animals and plants only entered in, after the fall…etc… I only brought that view up because that’s how most Christians see it; Although I couldn’t possibly have been prepared for your unique view though…

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Again you are trying to act as though Adam and Eve were just these mindless idiots...how could Adam or eve ever speak truth if they didn't know what truth was?

Again, I never said they were mindless idiots, they clearly had some awareness going with the literal view (remember I see the story as all metaphor) but that doesn’t mean they had knowledge of Evil, or even the Good, because you need both to have any contrast…

A more accurate statement going with the literal, is that they were living in the Good, under Gods direction…but had no knowledge of both Good and Evil etc…

Originally posted by ServantOfTheLamb
Being naked is not sinful.

I agree actually, but that is mine and yours perspective, there may be others out that there, that see nakedness as a sin…


Peace


- JC

a reply to: windword

Because of EMPATHY. Do you have any, or do all your morals and ethics have to be taught to you through rote indoctrination, books and lectures?

Just because I can understand and share how you are going to feel if i disregard your feelings or physically hurt you doesn't tell me if making you feel that way is Right or wrong.(And remember I am interpreting this from you view of ethics) One could say yes but you wouldn't like it. To which it would be perfectly rational for someone to simply say doesn't matter if I don't like feeling that way it produces a good result for me therefore it is good. If that is the persons ethical view you have no say so any further. Your opinion doesn't matter morals are subjective and therefore what ever a person deems moral is moral. Each person is their own ultimate standard of Good and wrong which philosophically brings us to the conclusions that their is no standard it is just personal preference in characteristics.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Just because I can understand and share how you are going to feel if i disregard your feelings or physically hurt you doesn't tell me if making you feel that way is Right or wrong.(And remember I am interpreting this from you view of ethics)

You are misinterpreting my views.

By the way ethics and morality are two different things. Ethics is a method of and rules of conduct. Morality is an expression of principles of a perspective of right and wrong.

Your opinion doesn't matter morals are subjective and therefore what ever a person deems moral is moral.

Again, this isn't representative of my views.

We are all connected. We don't live in a vacuum. What we do affects others. We have to get along and find commonality in order to survive and thrive. Societies have invented rules to live by, so that its citizens, hopefully, can survive and thrive. These are ethics.

Religion attempts to answers question, like "Why are we here?" "Why do we die"? "What happens after we die?" It's answer is God and Satan, Heaven and Hell.

Each person is their own ultimate standard of Good and wrong which philosophically brings us to the conclusions that their is no standard it is just personal preference in characteristics.

Where else would morality come from, other than an individuals informed self? Obviously your morality is different than mine. Mine is different than someone else. So where can I find this objective moral standard, that you insist exists, that is always true for everyone and everything all of the time? Where is it? Where is any proof that it exists?

a reply to: windword

Again, this isn't representative of my views. We are all connected. We don't live in a vacuum. What we do affects others. We have to get along and find commonality in order to survive and thrive. Societies have invented rules to live by, so that its citizens, hopefully, can survive and thrive. These are ethics.

Its doesn't represent what you believe because you don't truly believe Good and Evil are subjective. You statement above shows that you can't help but appeal to a standard outside yourself when speaking of moral but you claim it comes only from you....its irrational...lets look...

So you say morals are subjective, meaning What i define as Good is truly Good when i preform that action. If I think it is Good to murder without cause or hestitation and I preform that action. Then it is Good in a relativistic moral view.

What we do affects others.

Why does that matter? Rationalize the reason it matters that our actions affect others...

We have to get along and find commonality in order to survive and thrive.

Who says thats what we have to do?(Do you not see the standard outside yourself you continue to pull into your statements?) The implication of this statement is that its good to promote survival and human flourishing. Again according to what standard?

. Where else would morality come from, other than an individuals informed self? Obviously your morality is different than mine. Mine is different than someone else. So where can I find this objective moral standard, that you insist exists, that is always true for everyone and everything all of the time? Where is it? Where is any proof that it exists?

I don't think our morality is different. You probably do. I think you can discern what is Good just as well as I can. However I also think we both have the ability to ignore that code or deliberately disobey it. For example, I used to think abortion was ok. Even as a Christian. It wasn't until later I realized that it was the fact that if I messed up and got someone pregnant I wanted an out. Now it seems quite apparent to me that it is not the best way to deal with the issue of an unwanted pregnancy. I realize that my sin(inclination to preform evil actions) overshadowed the truth of Good.

The moral standard can be found in your statements which repeatedly appeal to a moral standard while simultaneously denying its existence.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Religion attempts to answers question, like "Why are we here?" "Why do we die"? "What happens after we die?" It's answer is God and Satan, Heaven and Hell.

Once again you have hit the nail on the head.
I believe we are here to learn. I also believe we are not born of God till we die. Every guy and gal must be judged and then are hopefully accepted into the family of God. The whole argument is just how to get accepted. At least that was my problem till I ran out of answers.

What happens after we die? I asked that one many time over till I read about the guy that died beside Jesus. Jesus told him that he would be in paradise the same day they both died. I looked up paradise and found out that it was used in my NT only three times. I saw where it was in the third heaven and that it had the tree and water of life and that it was located in that city called New Jerusalem. I had often wondered where that tree went to and finally found out. So anyway that is where the guy who died beside Jesus went and on the same day he died.

Now I can tell you about when I learned all of this. I was a snot nosed know it all with a field pack and rifle in Europe. That was way back in the forties when i thought I had all the answers. I am now going on ninety and not a bit smarter today than when I was nineteen. If you live long enough you will be the same way. Life sucks and when you are the last one standing it gets pretty scary. I found out one thing about you. You are honest and I believe one day you will have the answers. Never hang it up friend.