And now for the real reason for the war in Ukraine

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
Oh, thought I would add this. Foreign companies and citizens are also allowed to purchase real-estate in Russia.

So there's that, too.

WHAT???

Never! Putin would never allow foreigners to buy Mother Russia! What kind of perverted Western propaganda is this???

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Don't know why this is an issue. Foreign corporations and private foreign citizens have been able to purchase real-estate in Ukraine for a while now.

Yes, did I say anything different?

Apparently it is an issue to some and rightfully so.

Ukraine selling off millions of acres of the rich lands that makes them so valuable to foreign parties in exchange for getting loans, is not going to benefit the Ukrainian people in the end. Is it that hard to understand?

Foreign companies and citizens are also allowed to purchase real-estate in Russia.

Yes, off course, some real estate, this is not the same as a systematic firesale of millions of acres of your most valuable land.

Ffs.

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a reply to: noeltrotsky

Never! Putin would never allow foreigners to buy Mother Russia! What kind of perverted Western propaganda is this???

Another straw man argument.

There is no comparison.

originally posted by: MasterMaximum
Ukraine selling off millions of acres of the rich lands that makes them so valuable to foreign parties in exchange for getting loans, is not going to benefit the Ukrainian people in the end. Is it that hard to understand?

There is no 'loan' for 'land' deal. Loans are being offered if and only if Ukraine is willing to change the way it is conducting it's government and business. Why force Ukraine to change? Because the current system drove it into bankruptcy.

Land is being purchased by investors to conduct business. These investors have no role in the lending process with the IMF and World Bank. Other investors are buying different things in Ukraine.

Of course you want to confuse the two and smear them together in an effort to make the West look 'evil'.

a reply to: MasterMaximum

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, to be honest. A foreign company gets access to arable farmland in order to raise crops. In return, Ukraine gets about 17 billion USD from the IMF to help stabilize themselves after a devastating Russian campaign to carve off pieces of Ukraine for itself.

originally posted by: MasterMaximum
a reply to: noeltrotsky

Never! Putin would never allow foreigners to buy Mother Russia! What kind of perverted Western propaganda is this???

Another straw man argument.
There is no comparison.

Actually it was sarcasm. The price of tea in Russia has nothing to do with land purchases in Ukraine. Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

A straw man argument is when someone misrepresents your argument to find flaws. You can't simply say 'another straw man argument' 20 times and 'win'.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Great deal, they lose their land, they get money that has to be payed back and have to pay interest on top of it. All the profits will go abroad, the Ukranians will have lost their souvereignty and the few will pull the strings.

All it will do is provide some jobs locally but the real money andf power will go abroad.

Would it not be better if someone would just lend the Ukraine money so they can farm their own lands without having to give away ownership of their country?

a reply to: MasterMaximum

If Monsanto bought the land through all legal channels, then it's not open for debate, unfortunately.

Look, I don't think anyone is suggesting the Western powers didn't have a hand in what's happening in Ukraine. That much is obvious. This is how proxy wars have, and will continue to be fought into the future. The Ukrainians, many of whom just want to live peacefully without the Russian Federation NOR the United States meddling in their business, are caught in the middle of a conflict. Russia wants an uninterrupted land bridge between Moscow and Crimea. The US wants another nation allied with them to expand the reach of the EU and (possibly) NATO.

It's a giant boondoggle and innocent people are getting killed over it. I won't pretend I don't sympathize with the western view of things. I do, absolutely. But I also won't pretend the RF is blameless in the whole thing.

a reply to: LotToTell2

Personally, I think Ukraine is already done. They just need to take it out of the oven.

This whole exercise has been a fiasco.They should have left well enough alone.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

I think the problem I have with this whole thing right now is that the Ukrainian people lose their land,gain debt through having to pay off loans with interest,lose control over their own land,lose their pensions and have their social services cut,and get to stay in bitter debt(austerity) for years and years. If this is the west's answer to bringing in other countries into the EU and US orbit,I'll pass. This is like us being in debt,going and making a loan to pay debt,(which financial advisers always tell you not to do)and now your saddled with a larger debt and eventually the cows come home. When they do,you find that you have to pay all of it back and have to make huge deep cuts in all other expenditures. Trust me when I say,I have been there through no fault of my own,my ex's insurance screwed up and didn't put me on his insurance after we got married. After I had my son and all the bills came due,I found out the hard way. What a way to start off a marriage.

This is not even feasible for a country to run its finances this way. Yes yes, I know, I see what this country is doing and its flat out wrong. I have an issue with the IMF. They tell a country wanting in,that they have to cut social services,take pensions,take savings,leaving the citizens with nothing.Then they have to build up their military,and upgrade their infrastructure so that they come in line with all the EU's laws.They aren't given a grace period of some years to do this really,instead they are given these crippling loans with interest that anyone in their right mind would know that they can't be paid back. The countries trying to get in have to put up collateral of whatever resources or icons their country has,and then they lose ownership of it.There is much much more the IMF is doing as well:

www.globalexchange.org...

The IMF has created an immoral system of modern day colonialism that SAPs the poor

The IMF -- along with the WTO and the World Bank -- has put the global economy on a path of greater inequality and environmental destruction. The IMF's and World Bank's structural adjustment policies (SAPs) ensure debt repayment by requiring countries to cut spending on education and health; eliminate basic food and transportation subsidies; devalue national currencies to make exports cheaper; privatize national assets; and freeze wages. Such belt-tightening measures increase poverty, reduce countries' ability to develop strong domestic economies and allow multinational corporations to exploit workers and the environment A recent IMF loan package for Argentina, for example, is tied to cuts in doctors' and teachers' salaries and decreases in social security payments.. The IMF has made elites from the Global South more accountable to First World elites than their own people, thus undermining the democratic process.

I would strongly advise reading this.It is only the tip of the ice berg. The IMF needs to go.You want to talk about slavery? There it is,and it effects all of us,like it says in the article.

I wrote about this at the begining.. But it was the chinese who were land grabbing In the Ukraine, not the west..they've bought a lot of land...

a reply to: Dimithae

I suppose I should have said I am no fan of the IMF, and some of my previous posts were laced with a small bit of sarcasm (especially the Ukraine getting a good deal one). You make a lot of excellent point, and I agree with a vast majority of them. If I were to be the deciding person in the whole of the Ukraine conflict, I would do the following:

Remove Russian troops and weapons from Ukraine (including Crimea)
Remove Western weapons and arms (and troops if there are any) from Ukraine
Bar any foreign nation from imposing regulations on the Ukraine
Give Ukraine immediate, without any riders admittance into NATO if they desire it (To keep Russia from invading again), but stipulate that NO missile defense or launch systems will be placed within Ukraine borders. (Since this is what Russia ultimately fears, this should ease their tension on the situation)

Give Ukraine a joint relief package from both the US AND Russia of 20 Billion USD. (Ten from US, ten from Russia) as penance for what has happened, this relief will not be required to be paid back. Additionally, joint monitors from Russia, The US, and Ukraine will be left in the country until infrastructure has been restored to ensure no political corruption or laundering of the aid money occurs.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

I'm sure you are aware that there is no way this is going to happen.

Unfortunately, Ukraine is just a small piece in a game between much powerful opponents.

I mean, I've been saying this from beginning of the conflict. There's no way that Russia will allow for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO bases almost on their borders. I do not know why is that so hard to understand. I mean, have you guys already forgotten what the Cuban crisis was all about? Neither side will allow for the other one to have bases so close to their borders.

And i realize this is way off-topic, but i still don't understand why's NATO still existing when the Warsaw pact disbanded almost 20 years ago.

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

I'm sure you are aware that there is no way this is going to happen.

Unfortunately, Ukraine is just a small piece in a game between much powerful opponents.

I mean, I've been saying this from beginning of the conflict. There's no way that Russia will allow for Ukraine to join NATO and have NATO bases almost on their borders. I do not know why is that so hard to understand. I mean, have you guys already forgotten what the Cuban crisis was all about? Neither side will allow for the other one to have bases so close to their borders.

And i realize this is way off-topic, but i still don't understand why's NATO still existing when the Warsaw pact disbanded almost 20 years ago.

Well to be honest, with Russia's aggression into it's former territories in the recent past, I think now more than ever we have seen the need for NATO to exist. Especially since Russia essentially wiped it's arse with the Budapest memorandum and is in the process of carving off pieces of Ukraine for itself.

I see your logic, and I can agree with it to an extent. NATO being so close Russian borders is certainly a scary prospect for Russia, and I understand their wariness of another former soviet state forming closer ties with the West. But the people of Ukraine should be allowed to determine their own future without either side holding them hostage for their own gain.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

In a normal world you would be right yet again. But that's not going to happen, yet again.

NATO's whole purpose was to oppose the Warsaw pact. After the Warsaw pact disbanded, NATO should have been disbanded as well. For some reason that did not happen. Instead, they were getting closer and close to Russian borders trough out the past decades. And for some reason, NATO did not wanted to cooperate with Russia after the SSSR collapsed. I mean, we do have that council, which is in my opinion just a matter of formality and does not serve anything.

You still don't get it. Russia will never allow for Ukraine to join NATO. Never. It does not matter what the people of Ukraine want. Do you think the US asked Cubans if they wanted the Russian rockets on their territory? Of course they hadn't. It's the matter of security for both the US and Russia. If you have rocket and anti-rocket system so close to your borders, you practically have got no time to react if the other side attack you. I hope i clarified a bit why's not an option for Ukraine to join NATO.

And by your logic, who will stop the US? The US had brought destruction to so many countries, and we don't have an organization that's fighting against it. We only have Russia and China sometimes.

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

I think the problem I have with this whole thing right now is that the Ukrainian people lose their land,gain debt through having to pay off loans with interest,lose control over their own land,lose their pensions and have their social services cut,and get to stay in bitter debt(austerity) for years and years. If this is the west's answer to bringing in other countries into the EU and US orbit,I'll pass.

The problem you described was CAUSED by Russian influence over Ukraine for decades. No money for pensions...why? Big government debt...why? Social Services cut...why? Russian business dominated Ukraine for all these years. The country has been left with nothing except the old clothes it's wearing.

The West didn't bankrupt Ukraine. Why do you expect the West to fix Ukraine it's first year free of Russian influence? You think if the West doesn't pay all Ukraine's debts for free then it's taking advantage of Ukraine. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Well to put it in simple terms,yes I do think the west is taking advantage of Ukraine. Let me explain.With the IMF coming in with all these loans,loans that by the way they are NOT supposed to be giving Ukraine. A country in the midst of a civil war does not get IMF loans,unless the west decides to do that anyway. The IMF causes major debt with their terms,you would be better going to a loan shark than the IMF. Once involved the IMF takes over and tells you what you can and can't do,this isn't a loan that its up to the country to figure out how to pay back when its due,the IMF TELLS YOU how to pay it back. I will for the sake of redundancy repost my link on the IMF and what it causes.

www.globalexchange.org...

With the way they are doing it,it is almost impossible for a country to get on its feet.And even if said country should,its by the blood of its citizens that it happens. Those people end up servants for the IMF. If you take someone deeply in debt,no matter how it happened to them,and they are losing their house and no food,then you come along and offer a loan to help 'get them on their feet',being that desperate,they will just about agree to anything term wise to get their hands on the money to help themselves. They aren't thinking about tomorrow and what happens when that bill comes due.They are only thinking about how to get food for today. If the terms you set up are totally crippling to that person,than how else to describe you but a loan shark? You are taking advantage of someone that is in deep financial trouble for your own gain. And you aren't asking for a fair amount of interest.You want to drain that person financially. Thats not helping them,thats helping yourself at their expense. I think the Mafia has more compassion.

Now I know the popular thing to do is to blame Russia for any and everything that goes wrong in the world,but lets be honest,the same crooks (oligarchs) that were skimming off money from Ukraine's economy before,are sitting in office right now,a few got removed,but the others are still there. This is not a Russia vs Ukraine fight,this is a oligarchs fight and has been. They have just drug in other powers to help them overthrow another oligarch. They wanted a bigger piece of the pie. Well they have it and its a huge mess on their shoulders now. I am starting to hear of them thinking of removing Poroshenko and replacing him.He isn't giving the results they want. Thats the problem when you involve bigger countries in your greed.They don't help for free.They want to take it all over. Whether thats through land grabbing,resource grabbing,or financial rigging of economies.

The losers in all this is the Ukrainians. They will really gain nothing. They wanted larger pensions,those will be cut due to IMF loans.They wanted visas for Europe,that is not going to happen for a long time.They thought they could get better pay through a higher minimum wage, that will be cut as well. Already the people of Ukraine are starting to grumble a year after Maiden.They have found that they got nothing but a torn up country and hate from different groups exploding. There has been no real benefit and it will only get worse.

I really wish ATS had an un-flag button. This is ridiculous since Ukraine has been trying to get away from Russia for 20 years. Putin Poisoned their presidential candidate who was western friendly for gods sake.

Quit blaming the U.S. for everything in the world, you all are making this site and the people here look ignorant.

a reply to: Patriotsrevenge

Well since I don't really pay attention to flags and stars I wouldn't worry too much about unflagging it.

1.This thread isn't about Russia or Putin or anything else.
2. This thread IS about what all went on to start this war in Ukraine.Both the EU and US and Russia are all players.
3. If people discussing this makes them ignorant then so be it. I guess I am one of them,because I do like to explore all possibilities on how something unfolded. Knowing I can't trust the msm to give the truth,I hunt and search and during those searches,if I find something I think ATS would like to talk about,I bring it. I know that not everyone will feel that way and it is your right,but there is no sense in trying to tell others what they can or can't do. We like talking about these things. Maybe someday we will even get to the truth.