On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs, why I hate this Meme.

To start this conversation I will include the link that inspired the thread: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

I know this has made its rounds so I will start with my points of contention so this thread can be rightly characterized as a rant on the subject.

1. The characterization of the wolf is a closed interpretation that serves the argument without outlining the logical flaws of the argument.

Given the parameters of the characterization outline of the 3 main characters in this story I can not self identify as any of them. I certainly can not define myself as a sheep. I can sense danger and hostile intent and have no problem defending myself and others bent on being predatory in their actions.

I can not self identify as a sheep dog because I am not obedient to a master.

I can not by his definition self identify as a wolf because while I am ruthless in my self preservation and extending that to my social group I do not attack or act as a predator on humans but sheep are tasty. I was trained to be a warrior and hunter from a very young age. I was hunting at 7 years old. We would always eat what we killed. Never harmed a human. I have taken plenty of sheep. That is why I hate this analogy.

It is wrong because it makes all wolves to be predators without consciousness or selectivity. Wolves keep humans sharp and capable of self defense. Human predators should not be classified as wolves. Perhaps they should more appropriately be defined as werewolves.

As you can see the simplistic and limited nature of this analogy makes some of us kind of growl at it's limitations and conclusions.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Well, yes, but:

The wolves already understand this at a complex level or are too feral to understand anything..

The Sheepdogs also understand it although these days, some of those sheep dogs seem to be eating the sheep.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So one can assume that his article or blog was aimed at the Sheep.

You have to start somewhere and the KISS principle applies. They are sheep after all is said and done.

Know your audience.

P

You hit the nail on the head: it's a simple analogy. It's an incredibly simple explanation to an incredibly complex thing (the human psyche).

It's an article. I'm not sure why you find it so offensive. If you think you can explain the idea he's trying to get across better than he can, in the same amount of space he had, go for it.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I guess an animal analogy that discusses a human situation or issue is going to fall short by the nature of the simplification. I have raised and befriended many wolves and count them among my best friends. My wolf friends watch out for me when I sleep. They treat me like I am the alpha of their pack. It offends me I guess because I like the company of wolves. Their are fierce but honest and loving creatures. I trust many of them with my life on a daily basis. Wolves deserve better than being equated with the bad guy in my opinion. That is how I think the analogy fails for me and my experience. When I am sick or hurt Merlin my biggest male brings me food. He checks on the kids to makes sure everyone is safe. No one jumps our fence I can tell you that. I love my wolves more than a lot of people I know.

a reply to: machineintelligence

That's kind've crazy. You are offended by a presumably (site wont load for me) accurate analogy that reflects tens of thousands of years of wolf behavior because you know some domesticated wolves. Is that what you are trying to get across?

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

In my experience wolves are designed by nature to cull the weak and the sick from various herd animals. They eat more rodents than any cat ever thought about. They treat humans as pack members if they bond to you. They should not be equated with the bad guys no. If that is your belief I am betting you do not know any real wolves. I have no fear of the wolf so he is my brother and my friend. We hunt together and they seem truly impressed and grateful for a strong hunter in their pack that will share a kill with them. Do you really think wolves can be domesticated? That has not been my experience. Even if a wolf knows your name for him he is not likely to come when you call unless it suits his purpose.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Well I can understand that you have an attachment to wolves but...

The wolf/flock mentality has been used for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

How many stories and parables are there that involve a shepherd protecting his flock from wolves? It's something people can easily grasp. It doesn't mean they automatically equate wolves in nature to psychopathic killers in the human race, but it does help people understand.

I, for one, have never heard the analogy and thought "well now I get it: wolves are just like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacey."

a reply to: Shamrock6

It doesn't mean they automatically equate wolves in nature to psychopathic killers in the human race, but it does help people understand. I, for one, have never heard the analogy and thought "well now I get it: wolves are just like Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacey."

It is funny how you vacated the ground you were standing on without so much as a pause for effect. serial-killers.findthedata.com...
You list 2 famous serial killers equating them with wolves.

a reply to: machineintelligence

It's funny how completely and utterly you twisted my point around.

A) I know exactly who they are, which is why I named them.

B) I guess I should have bolded, underlined, and italicized the word "never" so that there was no room for interpretation when I said "I've never thought..."

C) I mistakenly assumed the words "Ive never thought..." could not possibly be construed as "I really mean that it's exactly what I think."

a reply to: machineintelligence

No. The eat humans.
Look at the wolf pack that went through a siberian town recently. Take them out of their natural environment and fees themand they might act differently, but they are xcanines domesticate them and I imagone they arent much different than dogs.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Of course wolves can and have been domesticated if you get them very young.

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow
In my considerable experience with wolves of various purity from full bloods to less that 20% they can be socialized to a person or a family and identify people as members of the pack but try and get a wolf to come when called, fetch a ball, or chase a stick. The more wolf in them the less domesticated behavior you will find. They might come up and ask you for a scratch on the head, but if you think you can call them and they come to you like a dog and lay belly up you would find that only happens in a training environment.

Wolf behavior is very different than dogs. At best you are a friend and perhaps a hunting buddy but no one owns a wolf. The wolf accepts you as the Alpha of his or her pack and bonds to you. If not you might want to stay on the other side of the fence from them. That is why it is very hard to find a wolf petting zoo.

This thread is a redefine and redirect of my rant on Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs: www.abovetopsecret.com...