More Evidence Russian Military Units Operating inside Ukraine

a reply to: Xcathdra

ohh when did the vote to impeach occur?

and how were the votes in crimea rigged? got any proof?

and how would you know the votes were rigged in east ukraine? anyone who voted to cecede from ukraine was labeled as terrorists and their votes were discounted.

and again provide evidence the votes were rigged. btw some blogger doesn't count as evidence.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

The vote occurred after he signed the agreement to make all the changes. When the result was to impeach he fled the country.

Russia invaded Ukraine and occupied crimea before the vote occurred. When the UN and bulk of countries say the vote was invalid its not hard to figure out what occurred. People have stated they were threatened by Russian occupying forces before the vote.

Why are you so hard headed when it comes to verified facts?
They have been posted time and again and yet you and others keep demanding the same evidence / acts that have been provided time and again.

If you refuse to accept the truth that's, again, is your problem and not mine. Save us the time though and stop asking for evidence / facts that have already been supplied. Maybe do some research on your own that expands beyond what the Kremlin tells you.

a reply to: Xcathdra

ah yes i suppose you are right. but allas he was still driven out. he didnt recognize the vote deemed it as illegal and refused to leave from what i understand.

as for stating that Russian forces were intimidating people i simply haven't seen it. i would like to. there are a few videos of Russian forces explaining the situation to civilians but not threats. the closest thing i saw was a confrontation between Russian soldiers and Ukrainian soldiers.

you ask me why i refuse to accept facts yet you refuse to recognize that not only was the US/west involved but has plenty of reason to gun after ukraine. same thing with Georgia, the war started when Georgia attacked ossetia killing civilians and russian peacekeepers. there is video of this. there is also video of NATO troops found among the dead Georgians.

russia had absolutely no reason to either destabilize ukraine or take crimea. Russian and Ukrainian relations were just fine. russia even told Ukraine that to them Ukraine joining the EU and the Eurasian Union was no problem. now people will say that this wasn't the case and Russia threatened them not to do so (behind closed doors of course).

the US on the other hand had plenty of reasons. pesky putin always out there calling for investigations on false allegations against his allies. and the russian economy, military, and overall presence in the international community growing. russia simply cant be alowed to grow if the US wants to stay on top. thats not how it works.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
ah yes i suppose you are right. but allas he was still driven out. he didnt recognize the vote deemed it as illegal and refused to leave from what i understand.

The vote to impeach was 100% valid under Ukrainian law / Constitution. The second vote to officially remove him from power never occurred because he fled. He can say the vote was invalid all he wants but the facts don't support that. His own party even voted to impeach. The constitutional requirement was met. He fled, once again forcing the Constitution to appoint a successor until elections could be held within 90 days and that is exactly what occurred. The government in Kiev who took those actions were elected in Dec 2012 and Russia certified the vote as valid.

There was no coup.
The government was and is lawful.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
as for stating that Russian forces were intimidating people i simply haven't seen it. i would like to. there are a few videos of Russian forces explaining the situation to civilians but not threats. the closest thing i saw was a confrontation between Russian soldiers and Ukrainian soldiers.

You think Russia media will report on intimidation in an election to benefit themselves? Russia does not have a free press.

* - Russia Moves Swiftly to Stifle Dissent Ahead of Secession Vote
* - U.N. Cites Abuses in Crimea Before Russia Annexation Vote
* - UNHCR Report on Crimea vote - *** PDF Link ***

You tell me.. Is the entire globe part of some conspiracy to single out Russia and punish them?

They said they heard numerous reports of vote rigging in the March 16 referendum, when residents of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to unite with Russia, and expressed concerns about the conditions under which the vote took place, citing harassment and abductions of journalists and activists who were opposed to it, as well as the presence of armed militias.

Some of the journalists and activists who disappeared have since been released, but had been tortured, the report said.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
you .... dead Georgians.

There is nothing to support these claims. You guys use the 5 billion excuse yet fail to recognize the 5 billion in aid to Ukraine was from the collapse of the USSR to the present. Ossetia was and is a part of Georgia. Russia, like we see in East/South Crimea Ukraine sent in their special forces to foment revolt and went from there. This is documented but you guys refuse to educate yourselves on it. Like Crimea, Russia has now begun the process of annexing the 2 Georgian provinces.

Georgia was and is a sovereign nation and as such can determine their own course. Russia thinks it has a right to interfere and dictate these countries foreign policies. You guys wonder why these former SSR's have run to join NATO. They join because of Russia threatening them. Russia still thinks it controls them.

No NATO troops were deployed to Georgia. NATO ships were sent with aid. If you guys researched the images Russia's puts out you would see they are using images from other conflicts / times and doctored them. They do this a lot and you guys just accept it without question.

Why?

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
russia had absolutely no .....course).

Russia has every reason to interfere and you and others have stated the excuses - Its Russia "near abroad". Putin views Ukraine as the equivalent of Finland during WWII. Distance between enemy forces and there borders / major cities.
Your sequence of events are out of whack. Russia recently stated they have no issues with Ukraine joining the EU. That comes after Russia derailed Ukraines first attempt to join the EU when Yanukovych was still in power. Russia also stated they had no issues with Ukraine or other formers SSR's from joining NATO. Now all of a sudden its an issue.

Russia has interjected itself into the agreement between Ukraine and the EU on trade, demanding over 2000 items be removed from the list to protect Russian markets. So, again, what right does Russia have dictating Ukraine economic policy?

* - S ept 2013 - Russia threatens Ukraine with bankruptcy over plans to sign EU agreement

* - Nov 2013 - Yulia Tymoshenko calls for Ukraine protests as Vladimir Putin blasts Europe over trade pact - Government decision to ditch a proposed trade deal with Europe under Russian pressure draws fury from Ukraine's pro-Western camp

* - 2008 - Putin Threatens Ukraine On NATO

What Russia says now is not what they said then. They are trying to walk back the situation in hopes of getting out from under sanctions. The problem is Russia has lied so many times and contradicted itself I don't think anyone believes them anymore. I think this is dawning on Putin who has a choice - admit he made mistakes, which is unlikely, or go balls to the walls in a high stakes game of WW3 / Nuclear war chicken.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
the US on the other hand had plenty of reasons. pesky putin always out there calling for investigations on false allegations against his allies. and the russian economy, military, and overall presence in the international community growing. russia simply cant be alowed to grow if the US wants to stay on top. thats not how it works.

and that is wrong on all levels.
Why did NATO give Russia seat at the table?
Why did the EU open up markets with Russia?
Why is the US/EU/NATO constantly stating the only solution to Ukraine is diplomatic and not military?
When has NATO/the US / EU threatened Russia with nuclear weapons.

They haven't.

They have done everything humanly possible to work with Russia. Putin is pissed because the USSR collapsed. Putin wants the old USSR borders back.

Putin rigged the 2012 elections to become President and in an effort to stave off protests and criticism he rolled back civil rights and found a false enemy on the outside to focus Russian attention on.

Everything Putin bitched about re NATO, the US and EU are a DIRECT RESULT of Putins actions.

You seem intelligent. You guys MUST look at all sides of this and stop with the blind support of Putin. Just as us in the west call our government out for the crap they pull.

In the words of Ronald Reagan - "Trust but verify".

a reply to: Xcathdra

i have looked at all sides, believe me. i ponder it almost every day. ive even tried to see how putin could be the bad guy. and i'm not saying he is a saint, hes no better than the Americans in many ways. he played a big part in starting the uprising in Ukraine but that's wtf politicians do they protect their interests at whatever cost.

i don't remember the decision for Ukraine to join the EU being put to a vote. and im not naive enough to think that the US would spend ANY amount of money over any amount of time for no reason. nor am i naive to believe that they were just expressing their opinion on the phone about yastenyuk being in government or meeting with svoboda leaders just to have a chit chat. It was forced through covert means, that's how government's operate. their interests don't coincide with the interests of the common man.

from where i sit the war was started because of western influence trying to gain control over defiant nations. its not as simple as "well ukraine wants to join the EU so they can". we live on the planet earth where people kill each other and every day we grow closer to another world war and the US is in the middle of everything. this is about dominance, and dominance cant prevail with defiant nations such as russia, syria, or iran. and the US wants to be dominant and im not sure i trust the US to be top dog. especially with their track record. i live in america i dont feel very free, and i doubt the countries that have been attacked by america do either.

im not saying i support putin, the more i think about it the more i think hes making a mistake but i understand why he would do the things he is doing. imagine how you would feel as the leader of russia trying to do everything you can for your nation and then some people from way on the other side of the world start messing in your affairs and trying to back you into a corner?

you tell me i blindly support putin while you blindly support the nations that have started multiple wars in the past decades based on false flags and accusations. the US and its allies operate under the guise of spreading freedom and democracy, yet their actions and the consequences of those actions suggest they care about neither. they care about power and control.

i don't expect you to see eye to eye with me but just as you want me to look at both sides i want you to do the same.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

That's the problem though...

Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine... They are not a part of Russia and what ever direction they go is their business, not Russia's.

If Russia has no desire to be a part of the EU or NATO that is their choice. Just like its the choice of East European nations on if they wish to join NATO or the EU.

You guys complain about NATO yet fail to acknowledge that NATO specifically refused to place NATO bases / military units in countries with direct borders with Russia. Only after Russia invaded Ukraine and threatened the Baltic nations / Poland did NATO move forces in.

Putin is pissed the USSR collapsed.
Putin is pissed he is not treated as if he were president of the USSR.

The US / EU / NATO - all have been willing to speak with Russia over anything at any time. Russia opted not to and that is their choice.

You cant blame the US / EU / NATO for taking actions in response to Russian action.

You guys keep stating the US / EU / NATO want war when all evidence to date suggests its Russia that wants those things.

Compare Moscow's / Putin's arguments to the facts at hand and you tell me what you see. I am serious.. do an in depth comparison.

Its one of the reasons I hope beyond hope Putin is removed from power. His ego / self image / expectations on how others should perceive him is a massive red flag. It means its personal and not political and that right there is how Hitler acted and we saw what happened when Europe appeased him.

a reply to: Xcathdra

i really have no idea what to say to you if you believe that Russia has no business in its neighbors joining another military organization. if you believe that then hypothetically i suppose you believe that mexico or Canada should be able to join a Russian alliance, if they choose to, and the united states has no business in those nations and there is nothing to worry about.


"You cant blame the US / EU / NATO for taking actions in response to Russian action. "

yeah and you cant blame Russia for taking actions in response to western actions. and no matter how many times you say that the west didn't even participate in Ukraine or Georgia it doesn't make it any less true.

the problem is that you fail to recognize that the US started expanding with the soviet threat, and after that dried up they invented another threat (terrorism), and they wont stop expanding until they have it all. there is more than enough evidence to support this, its right there in their military doctrine and its just the natural progression of those in power. they don't just stop at some arbitrary limit. if they own the world they will want to own the moon. whatever makes you think the people running this country don't want to run the world is beyond me as i'm sure you've heard it all by now. you are on a conspiracy forum after all.

Russians want to keep their sovereignty. and they will fight for the right to do so.

i can tell we'll never see eye to eye so i guess at some point Russia and the US are just gonna have to have a long bloody war so we can settle this since talking and diplomacy doesn't seem to work. the war in Ukraine could end tomorrow if the eastern part was given the right to decide what they wanted to do. but that cant happen can it? democracy is only allowed if it benefits the ones at the top.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
i really have no idea what to say to you if you believe that Russia has no business in its neighbors joining another military organization. if you believe that then hypothetically i suppose you believe that mexico or Canada should be able to join a Russian alliance, if they choose to, and the united states has no business in those nations and there is nothing to worry about.

Cuba and Venezuela are part of Russia's and Chinas alliance system. Brazil is a part of Brics. The US has not invaded these countries to prevent them from joining either.

Russia can influence all it wants. It has NO right to invade Ukraine.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
yeah and you cant blame Russia for taking actions in response to western actions. and no matter how many times you say that the west didn't even participate in Ukraine or Georgia it doesn't make it any less true.

Ukraine and Georgia looked to the west. Russia did not like it and when they realized influence would not work they invaded. Russia invaded when they didn't get there way.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
the problem is that you fail to recognize that the US started expanding with the soviet threat, and after that dried up they invented another threat (terrorism), and they wont stop expanding until they have it all. there is more than enough evidence to support this, its right there in their military doctrine and its just the natural progression of those in power. they don't just stop at some arbitrary limit. if they own the world they will want to own the moon. whatever makes you think the people running this country don't want to run the world is beyond me as i'm sure you've heard it all by now. you are on a conspiracy forum after all.

and you would be wrong. Trying to link NATO expansion to these issues is insane and represents a fundamental misunderstanding of what NATO is and how it works on your part. As for US expansion you are once again wrong and are demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of the US.


There is nothing that prevented Russia from running its own foreign policy contrary to that of the US. Stop bitching because Russia is not the USSR. Stop bitching because former SSR's want nothing to do with Russia. 50+ years of Soviet occupation after being occupied by Nazi Germany was enough for those nations to seek any outside assistance to break from the failed USSR and now Russia system.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
Russians want to keep their sovereignty. and they will fight for the right to do so.

Their sovereignty is not being violated. However Russians are violating the sovereignty of Ukraine. So because they do not support Russia they don't matter any more?

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
i can tell we'll never see eye to eye so i guess at some point Russia and the US are just gonna have to have a long bloody war so we can settle this since talking and diplomacy doesn't seem to work. the war in Ukraine could end tomorrow if the eastern part was given the right to decide what they wanted to do. but that cant happen can it? democracy is only allowed if it benefits the ones at the top.

Actually elections and sovereignty in the east / south were in the minsk agreements (something you apparently ne ver bothered to read based on your comment). The rebels decided, AFTER they signed the agreement, to make changes that were rejected not by just Ukraine, but the remainder of the planet except for Russia. Even then Russia played both sides of the fence with their announcements on recognizing then not recognizing the vote.

The previous votes in the past also failed. The areas in question are a part of Ukraine and as such is a Ukraine wide vote. That's not good enough for the rebels, who by the way are Russian citizens and not Ukrainians.

If war comes it is because of Putins arrogance and the ignorance of those who blindly follow him. Aside from nuclear weapons its a war Russia will not win. Since Russia will panic and use nukes, no one wins, including Russia.

See the stupidity of Putins game plan now?

Dianna is Putin -
Ego and arrogance are so bad that she is willing to destroy everything in order to win while not realizing she lost.

a reply to: Xcathdra

dude save it, ive heard it all before. putin is dumb, Russia is evil, countries hate Russia because of things that happened a long time ago, the west is innocent and has the right to do what they please, and so on. the fundamental difference in our views is that you think the west is some beacon of good while Russia is the anti west. you think the west invades countries because it is morally supreme and they have every right to invade who they want when they want as long as they make up a reason. i tend to think they invade to further their goals, democracy and freedom have nothing to do with it.

"Ukraine and Georgia looked to the west. Russia did not like it and when they realized influence would not work they invaded."

Russia invaded Georgia when they started attacking a city of innocents. and Ukraine didn't look to the west it became a partner without asking their people. stop denying that the east including Crimea wants nothing to do with the government in Ukraine or the EU. call the votes rigged or illegitimate all you want doesn't make you right.

"The rebels decided, AFTER they signed the agreement, to make changes that were rejected not by just Ukraine, but the remainder of the planet except for Russia. Even then Russia played both sides of the fence with their announcements on recognizing then not recognizing the vote."

ohh so they can vote but it will be rejected? i dont CARE what the rest of the world says, people have the right to choose. please explain to me why east Ukraine cant have autonomy like they asked for? why do they have to live under constant shelling because they choose not to side with the west? So because they dont support the west they dont matter anymore?

"The previous votes in the past also failed."

yeah vote tend to fail when voters are called terrorists and ignored.

"That's not good enough for the rebels, who by the way are Russian citizens and not Ukrainians."

accusation

"Aside from nuclear weapons its a war Russia will not win. Since Russia will panic and use nukes, no one wins, including Russia."

yet another silly accusation. Russia's military doctrine is non nuclear force to deal with conflict. but ohh wait i forgot Russia lies so it doesn't matter what they say, unlike the west who doesn't lie so everything the SAY must be true.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

People have a right to choose... unless that choice is something other than Russia.

So no.. you save it.