Jesus and omnipotence.

a reply to: Akragon

Lol you have no scholarly basis for removing any of those Scripture, and its obvious you are here to argue rather than to have an honest conversation about the truth.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

- Evil exists

Bit of a problem with this verse. Evil is only the absence of good. Much like cold is only the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light. None of the first three exist. You only recognize evil because you know God whose essence is "goodness", and recognize when something is absent of that attribute of Him.

If God is omnibenevolent (all good) then he does not want evil to exist.

I'll agree, but counter with "If God is omnibenevolent then he also wills that other things to have free will."

. f God is omniscient then he must know about all evil in the world. If God is omnipotent, then he should be capable of doing something about it.

He does know about it, and he has already done something about it(john 3:16), and he will clean it up for good if you read Rev 21. God is also perfectly just so if he is going to take out all things that are evil why not start with you or me? He is giving us time to accept his grace because he loves you not because you deserve it. The mess you see here on earth isn't God's mess its ours. This is the major problem with most peoples thought process...this is our mess why should He fix it even if he is omnibenevolent?

One could even argue that he is ultimately responsible for bringing evil into existence.

Not if evil is the absence of a part of his essence. Evil exist because of free will.

Galatians 5
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Humans can choose to follow the Spirit and act in harmony with God's essence or the can choose something absent of that part of his essence and follow the flesh.

An omniscient God would know in advance, about the fall of Adam and Eve through original sin. God would know in advance about the deluge, or the genocides carried out in his name by his order. Yet he chose to create us anyway.

Geez some terrible God allowing you and I to exist even though we suck...

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

nah... I already gave you the truth

I was just responding to your reply...

And I didn't say remove these books anyways... they're all part of the collective that is "the bible"...

Im merely suggesting that people should not take most of said book seriously... Look at what is said critically instead of blindly believing what you're told by others, especially those of any religious affiliation because MOST of those that are within the bounds of a religious authority do not read... they simply listen and agree...

Read the fine print... find the issues with the book, and draw your own conclusions instead of letting someone else do it for you...

a reply to: Akragon

nah... I already gave you the truth

Gave me truth? You gave me a lot of opinions that have no facts backing them up.

Im merely suggesting that people should not take most of said book seriously... Look at what is said critically instead of blindly believing what you're told by others, especially those of any religious affiliation because MOST of those that are within the bounds of a religious authority do not read... they simply listen and agree...

Maybe you should listened to yourself bub. You obviously know nothing of what the Bible teaches. You think the God of New and Old testament are different Gods....find me one Bible scholar that agrees with that.....

Read the fine print... find the issues with the book, and draw your own conclusions instead of letting someone else do it for you...

Who are you to tell me how I get my conclusions? All of my conclusions come from honest study of the word to see what it says.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Gave me truth? You gave me a lot of opinions that have no facts backing them up.

No I stated the facts... quite clear as day actually...

The only opinion I gave was that the god of the OT was not the same as the Father in the NT... Though I find that fact to be as clear as day as well... Most Christians don't... But most Christians don't know their bible either... Fortunately that is not my issue

Maybe you should listened to yourself bub. You obviously know nothing of what the Bible teaches. You think the God of New and Old testament are different Gods....find me one Bible scholar that agrees with that.....

No need for a scholar to figure out why... All one has to do is read the bible without any bias...

Most Christians can't do that either... read the bible using a bit of Critical thinking... heaven forbid

Who are you to tell me how I get my conclusions? All of my conclusions come from honest study of the word to see what it says.

I wasn't referring to you... it was a general statement...

And its something every person looking into Christianity should do...

a reply to: Akragon

No I stated the facts... quite clear as day actually...

Lol not really..

The only opinion I gave was that the god of the OT was not the same as the Father in the NT... Though I find that fact to be as clear as day as well.

You should have just stuck with calling that an opinion ...the fact that you cannot see Jesus on almost every page of the OT shocks me if you actually read the Bible like you say you do.

No need for a scholar to figure out why... All one has to do is read the bible without any bias... Most Christians can't do that either... read the bible using a bit of Critical thinking... heaven forbid

Something tells me you aren't a hebrew or greek scholar so its hard to read it using critical thinking without getting educated opinions on the original language. You think Jesus never claimed to be God, but yet Jesus clearly claimed to be the Messiah, and the Messiah was meant to be God as I have shown you from messianic prophecies already... you throw random verses out as evidence for the deity of Jesus even though they come from his disciples.

The one who hasn't done honest interpretation is you. Its obvious by your replies about "I and the Father are one."

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

...the fact that you cannot see Jesus on almost every page of the OT shocks me if you actually read the Bible like you say you do.

The fact that you do see jesus on Every page just confirms that you don't know what he taught... but it doesn't surprise me that you do... Christians tend to believe silly things like that

You think Jesus never claimed to be God, but yet Jesus clearly claimed to be the Messiah, and the Messiah was meant to be God as I have shown you from messianic prophecies already

According to the OT... but again, its not completely accurate on what or who the messiah was... IF it was, the jews would have recognised him... but he didn't fulfill all of their prophecies so they rejected him...

But like I said, the OT isn't correct all the time like you and other Christians assume...

you throw random verses out as evidence for the deity of Jesus even though they come from his disciples.

Actually no...

I look at the context of everything he taught, as opposed to Christians who sow bits and pieces of what he taught together, and mix them with Paul...

The one who hasn't done honest interpretation is you. Its obvious by your replies about "I and the Father are one."

Im always honest... Just because you don't agree with what I tell you does not make me a liar...

I and my Father are one... meaning one essence... Not one and the same...

a reply to: Akragon

According to the OT... but again, its not completely accurate on what or who the messiah was... IF it was, the jews would have recognised him... but he didn't fulfill all of their prophecies so they rejected him...

Nope no question the OT says the Messiah was God already gave you the verse. The Jews didn't recognize him because the Messiah comes in two form: the Suffering Servant(Isaiah 53) and the Conquering King(Psalm 22:14-16; Psalm 16:8-11 Zech 14: 4; 16-17)

Actually no... I look at the context of everything he taught, as opposed to Christians who sow bits and pieces of what he taught together, and mix them with Paul...

You want to tell me how John 1:1-3 has anything to do with Paul? You want to tell me why Paul should be distrusted? You claim to look at the context of everything he taught but argue that the context of John 10:30 Jesus means one in essence and not 1. They are asking Him if he is the Messiah and He is telling them yes for the second time. The MESSIAH WAS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD IN THE JEWS OPINION that is why they want to stone Him. THE SON OF GOD=name for Messiah. The messiah is God therefore the Son of God is God....

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Nope no question the OT says the Messiah was God already gave you the verse.

I know what it says... you're missing the point, even though I stated it very clearly... The OT is not always accurate

I realise you want to believe its perfect.. but that's nothing short of delusional

The Jews didn't recognize him because the Messiah comes in two form: the Suffering Servant(Isaiah 53) and the Conquering King(Psalm 22:14-16; Psalm 16:8-11 Zech 14: 4; 16-17)

Don't you think the priests of that time know their material better then you do?

They rejected him because he did not fulfil all the prophecies about the messiah... They... Like you, believed their book was perfectly accurate... but the fact is it doesn't matter what the OLD scrolls said, Jesus proved himself to be Messiah, and they still rejected him based on what those OLD scrolls said about him

You want to tell me how John 1:1-3 has anything to do with Paul?

I didn't say it had anything to do with Paul...

You want to tell me why Paul should be distrusted?

I don't see the point, You've already made up your mind... but I will anyways because its rather amusing how fully convinced Christians are even in the face of error...

Paul, was a Pharisee... He admitted that he still was one 15 some odd years after his so called "conversion"... He condemned Christians to death in his "former" life, which makes him a murderer... He made himself an apostle... John wrote clearly about him in his letters, and they show quite clearly Paul was a fraud...

Paul rejected the "pillars" of the Christian community, and stated very clearly he learned nothing from them, which is why you see nothing of Jesus teachings in Pauls epistles...

And his so called "miraculous conversion" was a lie... theres three versions of it in the NT, none of them are the same... All we have is HIS word.... the word of a murderer and a Pharisee...

A man who taught about someone he never actually met... and contradicted what said man taught

Now I realise you will reject everything I've told you... that's what Christians do when someone points out the flaws in their book

but again, they rejected Jesus when he spoke the truth as well... *shrug*

You claim to look at the context of everything he taught but argue that the context of John 10:30 Jesus means one in essence and not 1.

No it doesn't... Its the same as when two become one in marriage... they are one in essence not one and the same...

They are asking Him if he is the Messiah and He is telling them yes for the second time.

The MESSIAH WAS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD IN THE JEWS OPINION that is why they want to stone Him. THE SON OF GOD=name for Messiah. The messiah is God therefore the Son of God is God

And they, Like you... are wrong...

Jesus was exactly who he said he was... the son of God, not God in the flesh like John said he was...

And by calling him God you make him a liar by omission...

IF he was God, he would have said it... but he didn't... EVER... NOT ONCE...

Christians read into what he said to make him God because that is what Christians want to believe... even though he said specifically he was the son of God not God in the flesh in the very passage you're pushing...

the thing is you stop reading when you find what you want to believe... instead of reading the entire chapter to find the real answer...

Not the one you were taught

In the bible, it says that a child will be named Emmanuel which means "god with us." the word jesus means the same thing so thats part of why some people believe he was god. it also says that his name is the Word of God, and that in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god, and that the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.

personally i believe God is a time traveler because he said my father and I are One,
and that there is three things that bear record in heaven the son the holy spirit and god the father and these three are one.

he said "if you've seen me then you've seen the father."
he also said that my father is greater than I.


I believe that the holy spirit is the son of god from the future, and that god the father is the holy spirit from the future, as in he time travels twice to become the trinity.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Sorry for the late reply. This will just be a quick post for the moment. In regards to your comments about evil being an absence of good.

I found Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
but I highly doubt the evidence lines up with what you've got.

I do not claim to know all of it. I just claim to know that we have been lied to so it is up to us to find the truth. I do not want to convince you in my beliefs but I want you to know that we have been lied to, because we can only remain in that naive mind, believing in reality TV shows or the themes for holidays like the Easter Bunny, which is a fertility aspect of a pagan ritual, for so long.

You are aware that the virgin birth lines up with the Zodiac because the Zodiac is the Babylonian perversion of the Hebrew Mazzaroth?

Why don't we look at what the historians have to say? What about the people who wrote the Scrolls? Well the historians agree with the Essenes, the people who wrote the scrolls, and the Essenes agree with the Teachings of Christ, but the stories in the bible agree with the exposed ancient mystery religions of the near East, adn the darn media people don't agrew with anything - that is because they are coming from all different religions - the muslims believe this part, the Christians believe this part, but the truth is in the Essenes - they were the ones who wrote the New Testament before it was taken into Roman and Greek hands. So of them, even in Egypt, go all the way back to Nimrod and the Tower of Babel. So why don't Christians observe the holidays that Christ observed since Christ was a Jew? With my theories, this will all be answered. With learning the Essenes, all of the questions of the gospels are answered. Have you looked at any of the evidence yet? I am sorry you will not be happy about it. But just look, I am not wrong in saying that this new age is exposing the truth about it, Australia has already been through a dramatic change because of it.

Each star in the Zodiac constellations used to have a Hebrew name, and it told the story of the birth of the Messiah it is how people in Abrahams day would teach there children about God.

There is one thing I understand. That nobody agrees because they are not right. They are not right becuase they have been lied too so much that it is impossible to see the entire truth. Is it just a fluke that Gnostic means 'Knowledge' and Orthodox people are the opposite? And they happened to follow the lies the most? I am telling you that every single question is answered when we uncover the truth as to how the NT was fabricated intensely by Greeks and Romans. The oldest scripts of the bible were of Greek language. The Scroll are mostly of Aramaic. Christ spoke Aramaic. It is known that the Greeks gave Christ who is Joshua, not Jesus, that is why they called him Yeshua. So would you like to learn from the source or from the people who learned from the source? The scrolls do have the teachings of Christ in them, I have read them and there can only be those kind of teachings from one source, everybody cannot be Christ if you will.

a reply to: Akragon

Theres little to nothing that speaks of his omnipotence... Everything is attributed to the Father not the son IF you're looking for info on him being God... Just know the idea was a fabrication of the early church... His followers didn't consider him God... Nor did he consider himself God Though you should expect several IF not all of the Christian community of ATS to rally and provide "proof verses" that he is "God in the flesh"...

What do you mean by "Just know the idea was a fabrication of the early church.."? Are you suggesting the Synagogue (Church) of Jerusalem or the Roman church or perhaps both? Very few true Christians would ever confess that Jesus was God or a god.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Akragon

Theres little to nothing that speaks of his omnipotence... Everything is attributed to the Father not the son IF you're looking for info on him being God... Just know the idea was a fabrication of the early church... His followers didn't consider him God... Nor did he consider himself God Though you should expect several IF not all of the Christian community of ATS to rally and provide "proof verses" that he is "God in the flesh"...

What do you mean by "Just know the idea was a fabrication of the early church.."? Are you suggesting the Synagogue (Church) of Jerusalem or the Roman church or perhaps both? Very few true Christians would ever confess that Jesus was God or a god.

Uhm... pretty much everyone who claims to be a Christian considers Jesus to be God in the flesh...

Are you one of those people who like to say "well this person isn't a true Christian because......... "

And yes... Im saying it was a fabrication of the early church... Jesus didn't consider himself to be God, nor did any of his followers... That was something that the church thought up quite a bit after he died...

Perhaps the idea was started by a some of the followers of john... it seems to stem from him... though I am more inclined to look towards Paul for such ideas...

Similar to the trinity... which wasn't taught or even thought of when Jesus was alive... which can clearly be shown within the NT... it came much later

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The MESSIAH WAS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD IN THE JEWS OPINION that is why they want to stone Him. THE SON OF GOD=name for Messiah. The messiah is God therefore the Son of God is God.

You should also remember that the Jewish (rabbinic) Messiah is altogether different than the Christian Messiah> Jesus stood trial in the Jewish court of seventy one and was acquitted by 31 to 40 cast votes. That is why He was not stoned.

The rabbinic Messiah is believed to be nothing more than a normal human from the linage of king David and endowed with special power and knowledge from God. He will live and die as a man and will then be succeeded by his offspring. This will continue till the end of the world. The Jews do not recognize a Begotten Son of God.

The Christian Messiah is the Begotten Son of God in both Heaven and on earth. In heaven known as The Word and on earth known as Jesus. Difference being substance.

In both cases the Messiah is not God and has always been recognized as being the Begotten Son of God. There are many sons of God but only one Begotten of God.

a reply to: Akragon

Uhm... pretty much everyone who claims to be a Christian considers Jesus to be God in the flesh... Are you one of those people who like to say "well this person isn't a true Christian because......... " And yes... Im saying it was a fabrication of the early church... Jesus didn't consider himself to be God, nor did any of his followers... That was something that the church thought up quite a bit after he died... Perhaps the idea was started by a some of the followers of john... it seems to stem from him... though I am more inclined to look towards Paul for such ideas... Similar to the trinity... which wasn't taught or even thought of when Jesus was alive... which can clearly be shown within the NT... it came much later

No, I didn't mean to be rude but it surprised me that most Christians believe Jesus to be God. I wouldn't judge anyone by that standard simply because I really don't recognize any denomination as being pure.

Years ago I did study the first Christian church (synagogue) liturgy and Paul's letters were not considered as foremost in their teachings under James the Just. In fact the first synagogue was the house where the apostle taught, preached and ministered to the Hebrews. In fact it was some time later that the Greek speaking Jews (Hellenist') were even welcomed into the Hebrew congregation. To my knowledge they never proclaimed Jesus as being God.

Now the Romans from about 135 CE did pervert the entire structure of the Christ following sect. That was why I asked you what you meant. I wouldn't stand with the Pauline doctrine because it is so controversial and you can argue that forever without changing anyone's mind. There is a lot of bitterness in that direction.

Now as far as the Christian Trinity is concerned I do agree with you completely. I really would not want to offend anyone in their belief but I just cannot see the trinity as a Godly entity nor Jesus as God.
Thanks for your honesty---

a reply to: Seede

Quite alright...

I guess im just used to being questioned by Christians ready to pounce...