Jesus and omnipotence.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: guitarplayer

If God is all powerful then he can do anything. If God can do anything, then he should be able to create a rock so heavy he can't lift it. However, once the rock is created he should be able to lift it since he is all powerful. But this contradicts the claim of omnipotence. It is a paradox. What if we were to say, God can do everything that is logically possible? Well if God is bound by logic, then he cannot be the author of logic.

God can either create a rock so heavy he can't lift it or he can't. Which is it?

Omnipotence Paradox

God is not the God of logic the word says His ways are far beyond our ways and God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;. Like I said you are trying to place human characteristics on someone who is not human.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

God cant create a rock he can't lift because its not logically possible for an all powerful being to be unable to lift something he created, it is only logical to assume he can choose not to lift it. God only operates within the frame of logic because logic is part of his essence.

a reply to: guitarplayer

God also said he is all powerful. So do you care to answer the question?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

So than do you agree that he cannot be omnipotent? Perhaps he is just the most powerful being in existence, but not capable of doing everything because some things are just impossible?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Do you have a verse for that logic?

a reply to: guitarplayer

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

Did anyone every have to teach you that something is itself?

Did anyone every have to teach you that fire couldn't burn you and not burn you at the same time?

No because everyone knows God from the beginning we just suppress our knowledge of Him because of our sin.

John14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jesus(God) is the TRUTH. Humans can recognize the difference between truth and lie because Truth is part of his divine nature..

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

So than do you agree that he cannot be omnipotent? Perhaps he is just the most powerful being in existence, but not capable of doing everything because some things are just impossible?

I didn't say he wasn't all powerful, just because he operates within his nature doesn't make him any less powerful. Do you think a square circle can exist? No. God cannot create something that cannot be. God cannot create a rock he cannot life because there is not a rock he can't lift, because he is all powerful. This is logic. Your paradox is based on a faulty premise, and that premise is that a rock can exist that an all powerful being cant lift.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The premise is can a God who is all powerful create a rock so heavy he can't lift it. We both agree that he cannot. Since he cannot, then he is not all powerful, because being omnipotent implies the ability to do anything and everything. The only logical claim you can make from your position is, that he is the most powerful being in existence. Do you agree or disagree?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: greyer

Arguing over a fantasy? You call the Christian God a fantasy or a Supernatural Creator in general?

I call the Christian god Holy One, or Creator of Heaven and Earth. From the account of Moses for the Jews, the Holy One said that it, he, or she, or whatever did not have one name, but 'Call Me I Am That I Am.' This was an Egyptian term and gives evidence that Moses was in Egypt.

The real story and not fantasy is that we have to identify the line between the Jews and the Christians. Exactly what point did a Jew become a Christian? Wait, Jews put Christ on the cross, so how many Jews became Christian? Were they Sadducees that were the small amount of segment that called themselves Christians? Did Paul tell them all about it? Or was it manipulated by an illuminati of the day, sophisticatedly organized?

It is the ladder, just because there is specific evidence. Let me point out that I grew up on the bible and believed in it. But I also want to believe in Christ, a historical Christ, and I care, so when I find that Paul had to be in contact with this group then I have to feel about it - for the reason being that this group decided to take precedence over the true story verse fantasy.

So it wasn't the Sadducees, the Sadducees were the priests who Christ argued against. It wasn't the Pharisees, they were the law givers that Christ ate with on an occasion. It is the remaining group. This group was the true branch of David. This group has something in common with the NT, it is lied about. I can tell you the truth about this group. This group confirms the real Christ, the teachings of the real Christ and how to follow Christ.

What people do is glorify Christ, but when glorifying Christ they do not follow the teachings and practices of Christ. If they did they would know that the teachings are the teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls because they would have gone through the bible and the scrolls and listened to the academic authorities that are not part of the conspiracy to keep this information closed. The NT does have words of Christ. But the story, starting from the virgin birth is filled with paganism from the zodiac and those ancient religions.

Simply put the Scrolls are the only surviving remnant from the people how wrote the biblical past compared to the remaining literature that came from the ancient Romans how burned all of it and conquered the land afterwards.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;. I understand that God has placed in nature the evidence for His being. But as God has said His ways are different than our ways. If God could be logically known then where is the conviction of the Holy Spirit?

a reply to: greyer

Well that was a very long post, and your welcome to try and convince me that there is some secret way to follow Christ not mentioned in the Bible, but I highly doubt the evidence lines up with what you've got. You are aware that the virgin birth lines up with the Zodiac because the Zodiac is the Babylonian perversion of the Hebrew Mazzaroth? Each star in the Zodiac constellations used to have a Hebrew name, and it told the story of the birth of the Messiah it is how people in Abrahams day would teach there children about God.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

John 1:1-3
Was who speaking?

The narrator of course, who we assume is john... Not Jesus, and no where will you find Jesus saying He made everything... The author of this gospel loved narrating his book

Col 1:16-17

Paul... *shrug*

Hebrews 1:8

pseudo-Paul... *shrug*

Psalm 90:2 says God is eternal so Jesus must have always been God.

Except Jesus wasn't/isn't God... Never was or will be...

You can see evidence of more that one person in the being of God in the OT

Who wasn't God either... but that is a different topic

Lets keep listing more references to the divinity of Christ

I didn't say he isn't a divine being... Just not God... He did claim to be Gods son...

One can be divine without being God

John 8:58 is probably the worst example for evidence of him being God... Just because he said I AM does not mean he was claiming to be God...

John 10:30-33
You should keep reading that passage instead of stopping when it conveniently proves your point

Here i'll help you...

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son Of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Notice the question mark?

Hes QUESTIONING these people because he never claimed to be God.... not once

John 20:28
The best claim on the back of one verse... which every Christian loves to push

Even though he said blatantly The Father is greater then I

John 9:35-38
Son of God... correct

Notice also that every quote that makes him God came from Johns gospel?

Or Paul, but what does he know...

a reply to: Akragon

John 1 has always been considered sacred and scripture by the Church so I don't really get your argument here.

Paul knew James and Peter, and also had revelation from Christ. Again your rejection of this as Scripture doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't called God by people in his life time.

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son Of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus questions them because he has already told them who He is....He says that plainly in verse 25. I did tell you who I am you don't believe me. You are trying to interpret the Bible out of the context of the time period and the situation that is occuring

How about you go up further and see that the Jews were asking if he was the Messiah. You do realize that is OT prophecies and the Messiah was meant to be God(Isaiah 9:6 Jeremiah 23:5-6 Micha 5:2 ).

John 10
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

John 10:30 is Jesus plainly telling them he is the Messiah. Why does Jesus say that the Father is greater than him(this answers what you said about John 20:28) Its funny the verse that answers this is the only one you left out:

Phil 2
5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross.


Jesus is a part of God that is submissive to The Father part of God. It is not hard to believe that God has different parts but is still one entity. Look at an egg: Shell White and Yolk. All three are separate and one is never the other, but they are one egg. God is the same way.


The fact is you are picking and choosing what to take as Scripture based on what makes you feel good, and I am just taking the Bible for what it says. You are trying to throw out Scriptures with no good historical basis for doing so.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Again that premise is faulty. It presupposes that illogical things can come into existence. Its not a true premise and therefore yields no actual knowledge. The question is similar to asking, can God create a square ciricle? A square circle cannot exist. So no God cannot create a square circle, not because it cannot logically exist. It cannot exist because God is everything and logic is part of God. In the same way a weight to heavy for an omnipotent being cannot exist.

a reply to: guitarplayer

The Holy Spirits Job is to testify of Christ(John 15:26).

Go up a little higher in 1 Corinthians

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the


message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for [p]signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach [q]Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

They preach Jesus because brings the wisdom of God. If people call it foolish it is important to remember the foolishness of God is wiser than men...


27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not,

Why does God do this? so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no [t]man may boast before God.

Then if you continue that verse your fond of quoting and to the next chapter you'll see the big picture of 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 is that wisdom comes through knowledge of Christ.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
God only operates within the frame of logic because logic is part of his essence.

So what about miracles? Many miracles defy the laws of logic, do they not?

What about evil acts?

Is God capable of committing an act of evil? Evil is logically possible. People can commit imperfect acts. Is God capable of committing imperfect acts?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

So what about miracles? Many miracles defy the laws of logic, do they not?

Actually no they dont. Miracles defy the physical laws of the universe. It is completely logical to assume the simulator(God)can change the rules of the simulation(the universe).

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

What about evil acts? Is God capable of committing an act of evil? Evil is logically possible. People can commit imperfect acts. Is God capable of committing imperfect acts?

People commit evil because its part of our essence. Goodness is rooted in God's essence, so its not that God cannot chose evil its that he doesn't because of who he is.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
People commit evil because its part of our essence. Goodness is rooted in God's essence, so its not that God cannot chose evil its that he doesn't because of who he is.

So we have these four premises:
- God is omnipotent.
- God is omniscient.
- God is omnibenevolent.
- Evil exists.

If God is omnibenevolent (all good) then he does not want evil to exist. If God is omniscient then he must know about all evil in the world. If God is omnipotent, then he should be capable of doing something about it.

One could even argue that he is ultimately responsible for bringing evil into existence.

An omniscient God would know in advance, about the fall of Adam and Eve through original sin. God would know in advance about the deluge, or the genocides carried out in his name by his order. Yet he chose to create us anyway.

Now or during the creation, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God must be capable of doing something about evil. Not doing so shows he is not all good.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The fact is you are picking and choosing what to take as Scripture based on what makes you feel good, and I am just taking the Bible for what it says. You are trying to throw out Scriptures with no good historical basis for doing so.

The fact is I am allowed to pick and choose what I feel is correct within the pages of the bible...

And history is and has always been written by the winners... who usually lied, cheated and stole their wins...

So when I reject things within the bible because they are in conflict with something else within the same book... Or I simply do not trust the writer of a certain book...

I am free to do so...

I think just like many Christians, it just upsets you when someone has the balls to blatantly call out BS on parts of the "good book".... since you are not allowed so do such things

originally posted by: Akragon
The fact is I am allowed to pick and choose what I feel is correct within the pages of the bible...

Funny thing is that's exactly how the Bible came about. People picking and choosing what books should or shouldn't be included. People may argue that the council that did so was divinely inspired. However, I see no reason why that can't be true of you as well.