Government to Ordained Ministers: Celebrate Same-Sex Wedding or Go to Jail

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: beezzer

Granting the legal recognition of marriage to gay couples isn't attacking anyone's religion.

6 months in jail for every day you refuse to marry 2 gay people isn't an attack?

Gays have the right to NOT be discriminated against. If that is the penalty for violating a person's civil rights, then so be it.

I see. Gays have the right to have their way, but others do not.

Wrong. Gay business owners do not have a right to discriminate against anyone, either.

While we're quoting Bible verses:


2 Samuel 1:25-26

25"How have the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! Jonathan is slain on your high places. 26"I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful than the love of women.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
While we're quoting Bible verses:

Let's not.

a reply to: Tangerine



So you're suggesting we have a conversation predicated upon a religiously based bias without actually sourcing the religion itself?

I guess I can see your point. Going to the source does undermine the argument for bias.

originally posted by: Hefficide

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Gryphon66
While we're quoting Bible verses:

So you're suggesting we have a conversation predicated upon a religiously based bias without actually sourcing the religion itself?

I guess I can see your point. Going to the source does undermine the argument for bias.

Yes. This is a matter of law without regard to religion. No business owners can discriminate against anyone. It isn't like a Lutheran business owner or a Hindu business owner can get an exemption because of their religion.

a reply to: Tangerine

Oh, why not. I mean, it's like any other piece of important Western literature ... we quote Homer, Shakespeare, Milton, Twain, Marx ... why not the Bible?

Because as Hefficide and others pointed out above, the Bible actually says a lot about loving others and NOT judging them.

Every statement in the Bible that condemns same sex love stems from the Judaic Purity Codes.

If one isn't living under those Codes (and I don't think many of us are) we're not subject to those restrictions.

Besides, Jesus healed the lover or at least the "favored servant" of a Roman Centurion ... I think if He had any problem with it, He'd probably have mentioned it.

/shrug

a reply to: Gryphon66

And what? Even if what you are saying the verse says were true (and of course, these days anything that can be potentially rewritten to be gay is revisionism at its finest), I still don't see David trying to marry Jonathan.

a reply to: Gryphon66

The law is not being applied equally.

It is targeting Christians who do not want to participate in same-sex marriages.

It is discriminating based on a person's religious preference.

a reply to: Tangerine

Oh, so if I want to buy bacon from a Halal or a kosher establishment and they don't have it, they have no religious grounds to stand on?

a reply to: Gryphon66

This isn't about disliking gays. It IS about believing that marriage is between a man and a woman. The two are separate issues.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well, a few verses before (which represented several years) Jonathan gave David his robe, a set of armor, horses, etc.

Jonathan never married, in a culture that basically requires marriage and child-rearing as sacraments.

Who knows?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: beezzer

Granting the legal recognition of marriage to gay couples isn't attacking anyone's religion.

6 months in jail for every day you refuse to marry 2 gay people isn't an attack?

Gays have the right to NOT be discriminated against. If that is the penalty for violating a person's civil rights, then so be it.

I see. Gays have the right to have their way, but others do not.

Wrong. Gay business owners do not have a right to discriminate against anyone, either.

Actually that's .not true

And I have heard of others out there as well - Chicago and I think one or two more. Honestly, that's their right, but if they're going to be able to refuse business, then every other business owner should be able to do likewise.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Well, a few verses before (which represented several years) Jonathan gave David his robe, a set of armor, horses, etc.

Jonathan never married, in a culture that basically requires marriage and child-rearing as sacraments.

Who knows?

And David had a wife and murdered a friend so he could marry Bathsheba, the widow. So, whatever Johnathan might have been, it seems David liked women.

a reply to: ketsuko

No. You can't force a business to sell a product they don't normally carry. However if they did sell bacon and a Jewish person wanted to buy it they couldn't turn around and say no, Jews can't eat bacon it's against our religious laws.

a reply to: beezzer

Can you show evidence of other wedding chapels owned by atheists or Buddhists or non-Christians that are refusing to serve the public who aren't being forced to comply with the laws?

A business offering services of public accommodation is in violation of State law.

Can you show another business that is in violation of State law that is being ignored by the authorities?

The couple who own that business were targeted because they are breaking the law.

No, they've been "ordained ministers" for years, and have espoused their Christian faith for years, and were not "targeted" until they openly and willfully broke the law. No discrimination against their religion there.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Gryphon66

The law is not being applied equally.

It is targeting Christians who do not want to participate in same-sex marriages.

It is discriminating based on a person's religious preference.

So you're selective in who gets discriminated against based upon your personal preferences? You don't see it as gays being discriminated against at all?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
While we're quoting Bible verses:


2 Samuel 1:25-26

25"How have the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! Jonathan is slain on your high places. 26"I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful than the love of women.

He called him "my brother Jonathan", not "my lover Jonathan".

a reply to: ketsuko

Or maybe he was Bi ...

Or maybe he was so in love with Jonathan that he would never let himself love another man after he lost Jonathan ...

Or maybe the whole story and the book it's contained in are merely stories that have no more relationship to the real world we live in than the Greek myths or the tales of the Grimm Brothers ?

Who knows?

a reply to: Bone75

Yeah, and he also said quite clearly that Jonathan's love was more precious to him than the love of women.

David was a Jew under the Jewish Purity Codes ... do you think he's going to publish something that would get him stoned?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Well, a few verses before (which represented several years) Jonathan gave David his robe, a set of armor, horses, etc.

Jonathan never married, in a culture that basically requires marriage and child-rearing as sacraments.

Who knows?

And David had a wife and murdered a friend so he could marry Bathsheba, the widow. So, whatever Johnathan might have been, it seems David liked women.

Liked women and was a murdereous asshole vs likes men and you think they're evil sinners.

There's religion right there for you, folks - #ed up.