Logical Flaws In Progressive Creationism, Concerning Order Of Events.

First I must state that this thread is not about proving or disproving either the bible or evolution but only discussing the logical errors in combining the two, as well as answering a question I saw in a previous thread. The question was, "Why can't both theories, meaning Biblical Intelligent Design and Mainstream Chemical to Human Evolution, co-exist? These two specific views are simply not compatible, as I will explain. Many will claim that the book of Genesis does not mean "literal 24 hour period" where it says, "On the ## day, God... ...And there was evening, and there was morning—the ## day." This will not matter once you see the order of events, which is the key here. Both views have a specific order. The Bible numbers each day and explains what God did. Mainstream human belief shows a different order in which they believe things happened. I will explain this as well. While some may say this does not matter, I suggest that it does, as both views have very different implications concerning how we should live our lives, to serve ourselves or something else.

The Bible Claims: God Creates the Universe with the Earth (water-world) in it, then creates light and dark (unspecified light source, not the Sun), then creates the sky separating the ground level ocean from the water (or as some research suggests an ice layer) in the sky, then creates dry land, and then creates plants. At this point, God creates the Sun to contain the previously created light to shine on one side of the earth and the moon to reflect to the other, he then did this in various other parts of the universe creating the stars we see. God then fills the air and water with living creatures, and then the next day fills the land. Then God creates an individual man and then a woman shortly after. Then God tells these people to reproduce and fill the land, and take care of it. There was also no death (to humans or animals) until humans sinned, realized they were naked attempted to cover themselves with leaves, then God slaughters an animal to make covering for them showing that sin leads to death. At this point death enters the world lead to animal and human death. Meaning sorry, dinosaurs had not died before people. This view shows that we were created as servants. A future post will explain where religion comes into the picture.

The mainstream theories of evolution generally claim: An infinitely dense and in some cases infinitely hot singularity of high energy existed at some point and expanded, then cooled, various forces and mater and the fabric of space and time. Then as matter collects, thanks to gravity, stars are formed, and then as stars die newly created (in the stars) elements are scattered forming planets around other even newer stars. Then as the temperatures and combination of elements is correct, life springs into action, becoming more and more complex and gaining more and more information leading up to what we are today. This also requires generations of death and few surviving to improve the initial genetic data to allow species to survive. This also suggest that we are the ultimate intelligence (at least in our small corner of the universe, being that there could be others in other areas) giving us the right to decide our own purpose in life.

Source: Years of studying both the biblical view of origins as well as the secular view. Also The History Channel, Nova, public "education", as well as the Bible.

Reminder: This thread is about the logical flaws in progressive creationism, and not for debunking evolution or intelligent design.

It all broils down to faith. Some believe that an entity that transcends time and space is responsible for life and everything as we know it. Others believe that from nothing everything came.

Both can't be verified or observed, but you can surely believe.

In all scenarios we get to choose what we want in life.

Why don't you think that God is or made that singular point and set everything in motion?

By the way, I believe in God.

a reply to: mikefougnie

Hmm, not seeing the alleged flaws in either perspective or the order of their events.

Can you expand on those?

a reply to: bitsforbytes

I agree, that is a very good point. Nobody really knows 100%, because they were not there. I know many people who believe that God used the Big Bang and Evolution to create us, and that is an interesting belief that they are welcome to have. I was just pointing out that it does not agree with the Bible, for many reasons. However if someone does not believe the Bible, or does not believe in Evolution, and choose either one or the other (or neither) this logical fault is not there.

a reply to: Bassago

The purpose is not to point out flaws in either theory, but in the combination of the two. One says there was no death until humans made a choice, the other says that there was death and genetic mutation before humans even existed. One says the Earth existed before the sun, or any other stars, the other says the stars formed the material the Earth is made of.

a reply to: mikefougnie

I am sorry maybe I am tired, but I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to show or discuss?

The flaws in combining the two is that one is science and the other is not.

"Reminder: This thread is about the logical flaws in progressive creationism, and not for debunking evolution or intelligent design."

That doesn't make sense because you can't point out the flaws of creationism without debunking it. That is my honest opinion.

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
It all broils down to faith. Some believe that an entity that transcends time and space is responsible for life and everything as we know it. Others believe that from nothing everything came.

Both can't be verified or observed, but you can surely believe.

In all scenarios we get to choose what we want in life.

Why don't you think that God is or made that singular point and set everything in motion?

By the way, I believe in God.

Who said that everything came from nothing? Not scientists. That's another lie the fundamentalists spread. Another thing fundamentalists don't seem to grasp is that the theory of evolution does not address ultimate origin. It's only a matter of time before fundamentalists repeat those two lies on this thread.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

That is your belief. You can not disprove God's existence any more than I can prove it. I can not disprove Evolution any more than you can prove it. These topics really do fall outside the scope of actual science and can not be verified by the scientific method.

a reply to: Tangerine

If I am wrong, correct me. Explain where the singularity came from.

a reply to: bitsforbytes

This post was for the benefit of those who try to cut and past bits of the bible and theory of evolution together, undermining the scripture. To do this you must rewrite your own Bible, ignoring the sovereignty of God in the process and trusting the word of humans over the word of God. That is all.

a reply to: mikefougnie

That is the thing though, evolution is proven. Creationists either don't understand it or choose to ignore it.

ETA:

It is true that the theory of evolution has not been proven – if, by that term, one means established beyond any further possibility of doubt or refutation. On the other hand, neither has atomic theory, the theory of relativity, quantum theory, or indeed any other theory in science. The reason for this is that science does not deal in absolute proof, only in the balance of the evidence.

This is not to imply that the theory of evolution is in any way tentative or uncertain. On the contrary, it is extremely robust, backed by over a hundred years of research, experiment and observation. In all that time, not a single piece of evidence that seriously contradicts any part of it has ever turned up. Within the scientific community, evolution is not at all controversial and is no longer questioned; it is considered to be a fact, as simple and indisputable as gravity. While it can never be absolutely proven, it has come as close to attaining this status as it is possible for any scientific theory to be. To attack evolution by labeling it an “unproven theory” misses the point entirely.
Source Article

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

If you claim it is science, show me the proof. I honestly do not consider it science, but just another belief system.

originally posted by: mikefougnie
a reply to: Tangerine

If I am wrong, correct me. Explain where the singularity came from.

I can't. Neither can you. One of us recognizes that there is, at present, no evidence to explain it.

a reply to: Tangerine

Right, scientists don't know. Neither do you or me.

Still the big bang is a theory, that requires one to believe since nobody has observed the big bang first hand.

Creationism is based on faith, everyone knows that.

originally posted by: mikefougnie
If you claim it is science, show me the proof. I honestly do not consider it science, but just another belief system.

The Scientific Case for Common Descent

There are many other people online who make evolution easy to understand, such as Aron Ra. Check out his videos on YouTube.

Sorry. I know this is not what you wanted the thread to be. It is unavoidable, when you try to combine these areas of study. I understand where you're coming from though. Keep asking questions! Study subjects objectively and don't throw out things if they don't agree with your world view. Study them to see if they are valid, and if so, ask yourself if your world view is in need of a change.

a reply to: Tangerine

Why are you accusing anyone of lying. Relax. I am sure some scientists have claimed that everything came from nothing. This is yet another mystery right? Unless you know beyond a shadow of doubt the origins of everything. Also, evolution and the big bang are closely related since well it takes the said chaos of the big bang to give way to the possibility of life to form and evolve.

Those fundies and their beliefs.

All sorts of BELIEFS in our day and age. Nothing new under the sun.

To believe in evolution over god does not mean one chooses to serve the self rather than serve others. You mentioned that as part of the implications and I felt it should be corrected in the event that that is what you were implying. If not, then no harm.

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
a reply to: Tangerine

Why are you accusing anyone of lying. Relax. I am sure some scientists have claimed that everything came from nothing. This is yet another mystery right? Unless you know beyond a shadow of doubt the origins of everything. Also, evolution and the big bang are closely related since well it takes the said chaos of the big bang to give way to the possibility of life to form and evolve.

Those fundies and their beliefs.

All sorts of BELIEFS in our day and age. Nothing new under the sun.

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I was very specific about who is telling lies. Fundamentalists commonly lie about claims made by scientists and commonly think the theory of evolution addresses the origins of humans. It does not.

originally posted by: mikefougnie
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

If you claim it is science, show me the proof. I honestly do not consider it science, but just another belief system.

why do you ask for proof on a website where literally no one is guaranteed to be an expert? i would take you a little more seriously if you actually visited your local college and sat down with someone paid to know this stuff instead of armchair gurus whom you know for a fact have less probability of answering your questions effectively. i may as well go to a preschool and grill the kiddies on the batting average of the yankees lead hitter from the spring of 1970 in order to verify records i could just as easily find on Google.