How Can Jesus Be God?

and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation12

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.John6

John 3 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Try to imagine for a second if you can, you just sat down the pistol in a near death experience to open a Gideon NT and immediately an INVISIBLE AUDIBLE MANS VOICE sitting on your left says your name then "I am Jesus, I died for your sins, believe in Me and you will never perish' then reading these later

and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest Acts9

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. 1Timothy1

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father..Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John5

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.Mark

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.I and my Father are one.John10

But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Mark2

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.John8

A short video clip from 'The Gospel of John' film that connects the dots on the thread's topic...

BTW, apologies to the OP for not getting around to replying to his questions.

Not ignoring you Charlie, I just ran short of time today.

Jesus Christ is God in Human Form who came to set an example as well as pay the price.

He is not god, he is the son of god.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit....Mind, body, and spirit?

As for Jesus being God, or serving some God, all depends on how its interpreted. One could view Jesus being a rebellious spirit in a sense for challenging authority or even causing a ruckus. Others, and most the time view Jesus as being kind and responsible, much like how Shepards watch sheep.

Which is apparently a common theme , but I wouldn't be surprised since most Gods are usually related to agriculture. Sun and rain.

How Jesus is viewed as God more or less depends on where one is raised. Some would view Jesus as the mightiest, righteous god, while others would view Jesus as a healer, maybe even Angel. One religion would say a False messiah...

That religion gets talked about alot on Ats being related to the Devil. Even though it Jesus native religion.

Go figures.

IMO, the Trinity works this way (in modern terms):

There is God (God is the programmer, and End User for this 'game' we call reality)

There is Jesus (I see Jesus as a lot like a Sims character. Jesus is God's Sim, so he could work directly in this plane of existence.) Being part of God, yet separate. He was autonomous, his own person, yet he received his orders directly from the Father. I think describing him as a son, and the Son is a perfect description of who, and what he is.

There is the Holy Spirit (Seems a lot of folks have a problem with this one, it took me a while to grasp it.) I believe that the Holy Spirit is both God's own soul, and his Divinity manifest. Seems to me, that he uses a sort of 'soul power' to perform his will. Some people could also think of the Holy Spirit as God's 'Higher Self.' That fried my brains for a bit after that revelation. I think the anime Ah! Megami Sama displays that thought perfectly. The goddesses (little 'g'), daughters of God, all develop an 'angelic' Higher Self that they can actually physically speak with, and interact with. Whom can also separate themselves from the goddesses, and perform separate tasks on their own. Sounds a lot like what is described in the Bible to me.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

In regards to your op He was granted the position of head of all things in heaven, earth and below earth. Now he had other standing, but in regards to the passages you posted, a lesser position and relative to the position of man, He was granted total status, as an official capacity, being "the firstborn of many brothers" after the resurrection.

Its like being a son you have certain status already, which in Jesus case was demonstrated elsewhere. But He was vetted for His final standing through the death on the cross and resurrection through a test of obedience.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: borntowatch

So what is your angle?

I don't have one...
I'm asking a simple question!!!

You have quoted every possible text to draw a division between Christ and the Father.
Almost like you are selling something?

No I haven't, there is many more I could use to question this post-Jesus myth...
& I'm not from the Vatican, I'm not selling anything!

I said keep it respectful, but I'm happy to return the antagonistic favour!

Antagonistic?

I am afraid the internet doesnt clearly convey a persons position.

Again, there are ample verses that you have completely neglected. This is why I think you have an agenda. You have mined only verses to show the division, ignoring every verse that explains that Christ whilst different is God.

My curtness was based on simply finding your real question. I dont understand how a person could find so many quotes that show Christs identity as an individual, yet completely ignore anything that shows the similarities.

I still dont.

So with all due respect, whats your issue, whats your agenda. Maybe I am wrong and you dont have one, thats good as well.

The net is full of good commentaries about the Trinity, that might be a better place to start. Maybe then if you get stuck you could broach an issue.


creation.com...

a reply to: JimNasium

Walaikum Salam brother...
That was an excellent analogy of things to come...
Thanks for the insight!

a reply to: borntowatch

If you read the thread pretty much everybody has answered te question to the best of their ability ignoring any preconceptions about myself...
You're the only one who asked me about an agenda, which you've asked again despite me saying I don't have one...
That's antagonistic imo...

The net is full of good commentaries about the Trinity, that might be a better place to start. Maybe then if you get stuck you could broach an issue.

Personally I feel if ATS doesn't have the answers then no one does...
I could scour the web all day but I'll find either bias or hatred...
Here there will be a neutral standpoint and respectful engaging of minds...


I never neglected other verses...
I merely pointed to the ones that contradict the narrative...
Surely there should be no contradiction if Jesus is God?
Thus my confusion!

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: JimNasium

Walaikum Salam brother...
That was an excellent analogy of things to come...
Thanks for the insight!

So based on the original message from Jim and your reply and greeting of "Walaikum Salam", I would chance a guess that you are a Muslim? or at the very least, against Christianity?

Just a guess.

No agenda still, just want to keep it non antagonistic, not your whole threads premise to antagonise those who believe in Christ's deity.
A reason for your one sided opening?

Its fun to play the game, just dont think that every one is gullible.

No antagonism really.

Tell me in a non antagonistic way, what religion do you subscribe to, any, are you an atheist, open to everything.


No dramas if you dont want to answer, I dont mind, just interested

You assumption is correct Jesus is not the creator God the Father.However the fallacy of your postulation is that you are depending on a book to defend the position the person Jesus is not God.A book (no matter what book) cannot prove nor disprove that a “person” is the creator God or not.It is a futile endeavor. However the scriptures sole purpose is as a “testimony (witness) that testifies of Yahoshua.That testimony is Yahoshua is the Son of the creator God the Father.That is NOT the proof though and neither are the scriptures you quoted the proof that Yahoshua is not the Son of the creator God.

In it’s most basic foundational meaning a “son” is the “seed” of it’s father…it’s heir.The scriptures testify that Yahoshua is the “seed”sometimes called the “living” word of the creator God.It is not “literally a “word” of course.The testimony says all of creation was “created” by the creator God the Father but the Son of the creator God is the ONLY begotten. When a man “creates” something it may have come from their “mind” however it is not “them”it is something other than them.

When a man “begets” a son( a heir) it is from them(their spermatozoon seed cell).Of course in the scriptures those “words” are not literal.Yahoshua is not a “spermatozoon cell” it is the opposite the spermatozoon is “like” the seed of the creator God the Father.The creator God created everything through this “seed” process because that is the “image” of the core process of life (spirit).Just as every human was born from their fathers seed and their mothers egg so is this “life “ process…the extent of that process is not known similarly to how the “real” process of conception was not known until recently and we still don’t understand all of it because all of the facts are not known.

Essentially that is the same thing with the creator God the Father and the Son.What we can know by reason is(if there is a creator God) it is a "relationship" process that is an “image” of the “real” reality.This can all be “signified” by the only “Truth” language….math…numbers don’t lie… they can only be summed incorrectly.

The most significant “numbers” are a number sequence called the Fibonacci number (Fn for short) sequence.The fact is the Fn sequence is the building blocks of all life as we know it from DNA to spiral galaxies everything is “created” through the Fn sequence in some form.The beauty of it is it’s simplicity inside it’s infinite complexity.

The Fn sequence is a recursive pattern where adding two numbers in the sequence equals the 3rd.Each new number is “begotten” by the previous two numbers and so on to infinity.

0-1-1-2-3-5-8-13-21-34-55-89-144-233….to infinity

The number 1 is unity the “1st number” ALL numbers are begotten from.For a Fn two sequential numbers are added to equal a 3rd.The “number” before “1” is “0”
0+1=1

In one equation 3 numbers are known
Fn0=0
Fn1=1
Fn2=1

thusly:

Fn0+Fn1=Fn2
0+1=1

In one sense Fn1 is “1st”(greater).It is the unity.Fn0 gets it’s “name” from a “relationship in a recursive pattern from Fn1.In the same way as Fn2 but Fn2 is the “sum”.In other words it took all 3 to beget the Fn sequence.This is the “beginning”.It is not to be confused with “time” beginning. This equation “always” existed.Calculating only “caused" it to exist and be observed IN time.This is like the “Big Bang”of math because there is no way to “observe” where these numbers came from….btw this is NOT the trinity(which is a false religious doctrine of men).

Now there are 3 Fn.Notice it only “appears to be two numbers….0-1…..yet both the numbers “1” are not in the same “relationship”.Fn1=1 is unity…Fn2=1 was begotten from Fn0+Fn1.Their “number” value may be the same but Fn2 gets it’s value FROM Fn1.Without Fn1=1 there are no other numbers.Fn0 has no value ..it is void….zero…however it was the catalyst in Fn2 =1 being begotten.Now more math sums can be calculated.Ratios are the most important “equations” because ALL equations are “ratios”(relationship between numbers).
Fn0÷Fn1=
0÷1=0
Fn1÷Fn2=
1÷1=1

As you can see the ratio of Fn0:Fn1=0 is void and has no value.However Fn1:Fn2=1 is unity!This is the only time this ratio is in the Fn sequence because it is the most significant.It is the ONLY begotten ratio.This signifies the relationship of the creator God the Father to the Son in an “image” through math.

Fn0=the void
Fn1=the Father the creator God
Fn2=the Son of the creator God

to continue the sequence:
Fn1+Fn2=Fn3
1+1=2
Fn3=2

When Fn1 and Fn are added they are exactly doubled ..the only time this happens in all of the Fn sequence.Fn3=2 is the completion of the Father and The Son .. LIFE(spirit).

Fn1+Fn2=Fn3
1+1=2
Fn3=2
Fn3=Spirit

btw..no this is NOT the trinity(which is a false doctrine)....again these “numbers” signify they are not “literal” and the calculations are not IN sequential linear time.Only mans perception of them is so they form a sequence.In reality ALL of these equations are what we would call simultaneous.The Fibonacci continues on to signify many things through math the most significant is the Golden Ratio phi/Phi.
1:0.618……phi
1:1.618……Phi

This is the “perfect proportion” of a number to “1”.It is calculated by dividing 2 adjacent Fn.As the Fn “grows” larger the sums grow closer to the Golden Ratio....notice Fn1÷Fn2(or Fn2÷Fn1)=1(unity)

1÷1=1
2÷1=0.5
2÷3=0.666…
3÷2=1.5
3÷5=0.6
5÷3=1.666…
5÷8=0.625
8÷5=1.6
8÷13=0.615,384,……
13÷8=1.625
13÷21=0.619,047….
21÷13=1.615,384
21÷34=0.617,647,058,823….
34÷21=1.619,047
34÷55=0.618,181,818……
55÷34=1.617,647,058,823
55÷89=0.617,977,528,089,888……
89÷55=1.618,181,818….
89÷144=0.618,055,555,…..
144÷89=1.617,977,528,089,888
144÷233=0.618,025,751,072,….
233÷144=1.618,055,555,555….

Notice at Fn9÷Fn10(34÷55) is the 1st time the sum is “618” it isn’t until Fn12÷Fn13 that phi/Phi “stabilizes at 618(144 being the key number)

Phi is also calculated as
√5+1÷2=1.618,033,988,749,895…….which btw is exactly Fn38÷Fn37

however more significantly it signifies the perfect proportion more clearly
1÷0.618,033,988,749,895=1.618,033,988,749,895
1÷1.618,033,988,749,895=0.618,033,988,749,895

This signifies the 2 unitys of “1” in the Fn sequence are in a perfect ratio..which is signifying the “growing” perfect relation of the creator God with all of creation.In its present state most of creation is at:
Fn3÷Fn4
2÷3=0.666…….

The fact is the creator God is not a mystical magician performing “miracles”…they are a mathematician with everything being perfectly calculated with reason and purpose. Just because mans perspective sees it differently does not mean the equation is not being summed correctly.It is an image that is being “mirrored”. The Golden Ratio phi/Phi is an irrational number (it never resolves) that is infinite and cannot be fully known yet is in unity “1”. The Father and I are “1”

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

It's called a cult of personality, thanks to one Emperor Constantine.

A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized, heroic, and at times, worshipful image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. Sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as "charismatic authority". A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda usually by the state, especially in totalitarian states.

Though it could also be a charismatic authority from early Christians over-exaggerating his accomplishments.

[P]ower legitimized on the basis of a leader's exceptional personal qualities or the demonstration of extraordinary insight and accomplishment, which inspire loyalty and obedience from followers.[4]

Take your pick. It's hard to prove if Jesus even existed, so it could easily be either of those two things (or a combination of both of them).

a reply to: borntowatch

Tell me in a non antagonistic way, what religion do you subscribe to, any, are you an atheist, open to everything.

I am a Muslim my friend...
I believe that Jesus is the Messiah...
I believe he is one of the greatest prophets to walk this Earth...
& I have nothing against Christianity...
People of the Books are God's people...
Christian, Jew & Muslim alike...
That's the Muslim way... There is no superiority we all worship the God of Abraham!!!

No agenda still, just want to keep it non antagonistic, not your whole threads premise to antagonise those who believe in Christ's deity.

I clearly said in the OP not to bait Christians...
That's not the type of thread I wish to take part in...
One with meaningful debate is what I aimed to produce...
So apologies if it seemed I was being antagonistic...
It seemed one sided because that's my POV...
I then asked for others POV, respectfully!

Its fun to play the game, just dont think that every one is gullible.

I'm not playing games my friend...
& not for one second would I be naive enough to think I could take anyone at ATS for gullible!

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: borntowatch

If you read the thread pretty much everybody has answered te question to the best of their ability ignoring any preconceptions about myself...
You're the only one who asked me about an agenda, which you've asked again despite me saying I don't have one...
That's antagonistic imo...

The net is full of good commentaries about the Trinity, that might be a better place to start. Maybe then if you get stuck you could broach an issue.

Personally I feel if ATS doesn't have the answers then no one does...
I could scour the web all day but I'll find either bias or hatred...
Here there will be a neutral standpoint and respectful engaging of minds...


I never neglected other verses...
I merely pointed to the ones that contradict the narrative...
Surely there should be no contradiction if Jesus is God?
Thus my confusion!

Pretty much everybody has answered to your requirments, and thats nice.
Me I wondered why you defined something then asked a question based on your definition.

I wondered what angle you were coming from, helps understand your position and answering your question.

If you are a Muslim then it would be silly to address the answer as to a Mormon, a Catholic or Hindu. Thats logic not antagonism.

I also agree that ATS has many fine answers, I use it as my main news site believe it or not.
Sadly there are also some very bad answers and irrelevant comments. Many comments dont address the question and some of the answers are irrelevant.

You see a contradiction and I can understand your confusion. You wont get a reasonable answer to such a detailed question in a chat forum.
It is a deep theological question based on what is recorded in the bible (do you accept the Bible could be true, if not this is a waste of time) not easily explained here

Do you really want an answer to your question, do I want to waste time explaining the Trinity to somebody who is not really interested.
I am qualifying the interest of your post, happy to answer it if I think you really want an answer, not willing to waste my time if its just a "Jesus is not God" statement
I read your post as a "Jesus is not God" statement. Simple, happy?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

How Can Jesus Be God?

He can't.

- God cannot be born

- He never claimed to be God

- God cannot be seen in this life and even if God did somehow manifest in this life, you wouldn't be able to look at him anyway.

- God doesn't need to sleep, eat, drink etc

Walking in the footsteps of God and being God are two completely different things.. Jesus was a Messenger of God and nothing more.

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Look at yourself in a mirror. Which one are you and which one is your image? Between you and the image you see, there is a mirror. The mirror is the Mother, or matter / matrix. The Son of God is the image of God. We are all the image of God as mankind. Within us is the soul of the Son and the Spirit of the Mother. Together, the three are God, or Elohim (trinity).

Take another look now at God and His image.

You could not said it better. When we look at us through a mirror, are we really looking at us or a reflection of us? Which one is the real one? I'll say both images are real. Jesus is a reflection of GOD through Mary (Mary is a transliteration of "mare" meaning sea or water).

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Wa alaykumu s-salam to you too. A lovely greeting .

Even the Buddhist and Hindu, Sikhs are in their own way worshiping the God of Abraham. There is only one creator that you can find.

Call it light/chi/holy spirit. The name do not matter. It is the divine spark.

Why think thus O men of piety
I have returned to sobriety
I am neither a Moslem nor a Hindu
I am not Christian, Zoroastrian, nor Jew

I am neither of the West nor the East
Not of the ocean, nor an earthly beast
I am neither a natural wonder
Nor from the stars yonder

Neither flesh of dust, nor wind inspire
Nor water in veins, nor made of fire
I am neither an earthly carpet, nor gems terrestrial
Nor am I confined to Creation, nor the Throne Celestial

Not of ancient promises, nor of future prophecy
Not of hellish anguish, nor of paradisic ecstasy
Neither the progeny of Adam, nor Eve
Nor of the world of heavenly make-believe

My place is the no-place
My image is without face
Neither of body nor the soul
I am of the Divine Whole.

I eliminated duality with joyous laughter
Saw the unity of here and the hereafter
Unity is what I sing, unity is what I speak
Unity is what I know, unity is what I seek

Intoxicated from the chalice of Love
I have lost both worlds below and above
Sole destiny that comes to me
Licentious mendicity

In my whole life, even if once
Forgot His name even per chance
For that hour spent, for such moment
I'd give my life, and thus repent

Beloved Master, Shams-e Tabrizi
In this world with Love I'm so drunk
The path of Love isn't easy
I am shipwrecked and must be sunk.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Even the Buddhist and Hindu, Sikhs are in their own way worshiping the God of Abraham.

Jesus was NOT the God of Abraham.

Genesis 8
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;…

Hebrews 6:20
Where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:16
Who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

a reply to: windword

Jesus could have fulfilled the order of Melchizedek and still be so much more. He fulfilled the Melchizedek order as God in the flesh.

More importantly when Jesus said "Before Abraham was I Am". By doing that He placed Himself at the burning bush and all that goes with that.....Tell them I Am sent you, the God of your fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

They understood what He was saying.....that HE was the I Am....and they were going to stone Him for it.

Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.…

This is who Jesus said He was. Part of this lends to the Melchizedek order, having no beginning or ending. I personally believe that the writer of Hebrews was trying to straiten out some sectarian holdings as to Melchizedek much the same way they had to straiten out hard core followers of John the Baptist who were still preaching Johns message unaware of Jesus. The writer was simply trying to explain that the Melchizedek order had been fulfilled and superseded.