How Can Jesus Be God?

a reply to: Logarock

So if you aren't going to waste any time with me, why did you respond to me in the first place? No one else seems to have.

My question was this:

To everyone in the thread quoting Jesus quotes, what makes him so trustworthy?

So explain to me why a Jesus quote makes Jesus trustworthy. To me that looks like circular reasoning (a logical fallacy). What would you call it?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

How Can Jesus Be God?

We are a species still in the nursery of existence. We have only just begun to understand who and what we are in a universe so vast that we still can't even measure it.

Are there aliens? maybe, maybe not...
Are there deities? maybe, maybe not...

It's still all so much a matter of faith that we have to look at it head-on to see it for what it is and then tear down to maintain our levels of inner security in our beliefs.

Science is good but it is still quite primitive. In a hundred years (should we get that far), people will look back and laugh at our science today just as we do that of 1914.

This all has to be taken into perspective to appreciate our spot here...

Was Jesus God? Good question.
I wasn't there and so... I am comfortable in seeing Him as an example of how human beings should live their lives... with forgiveness and compassion and open arms.

Your call is your own.

a reply to: Krazysh0t


Its not circular reasoning its testimony. I am confident that the men that wrote these reports also understood just how ridiculous much of this testimony would sound to most people.

a reply to: Logarock

Why do you get on this subject when you haven't even really read the material? Try chewing your food!

PFFFT

Way to deflect when you have no come back. You can read the Bible backwards and forwards, and still, Jesus NEVER claimed to be GOD, God or god. The very idea is utterly absurd to anyone who employs critical thinking.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Why do you get on this subject when you haven't even really read the material? Try chewing your food!

Well! That's very presumptuous of you! As far as I know, windword has an excellent command of the "material".

*eyeroll*

Jesus never said he was God. That's my conclusion from decades of research on the matter.

Its not really presumptuous. Presumptuous is saying something like "for all I know" and yet trying to engage like you have some command of the material.

a reply to: [post=18401150]Logarock[/post

It takes just a small speck of comprehension ability to see that Jesus was claiming to be God of the Hebrews

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

It takes just a small speck of comprehension ability to see that Jesus NEVER claimed to be God of the Hebrews.

a reply to: Logarock

I'd imagine that they wouldn't. People are gullible and back then REALLY superstitious. Tell them a few fancy stories, make them sound close to home, throw in a few wise words, and you got them hooked. We ARE talking about uneducated peasants from the middle east here.

Keep in mind you are referring to a culture that believed in a whole PANTHEON of gods as the main religion. Some of these gods were said to come down and impregnate women. Do you HONESTLY believe that a story about a man-god would be considered ridiculous? That's laughable. Try a different argument. Atheism wasn't even a concept back then, and the ones who expressed disbelief were usually shunned, imprisoned, or executed.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Now don't be a hypocrite. You certainly don't believe Jesus walked on water or raised the dead. Christians were persecuted for actually believing this stuff, feed to lions, burnt at the stake ect. And get another argument besides this tired old Constantine crap. He was just the pagan answer, co opt, when they couldn't control Christianly after 100s of years.

a reply to: windword


Dude when Jesus said "I Am" he was clearly claiming to be God and was certainly understood that way by those that tried to kill him on the spot. What book are your reading? Even someone with no point to make or ax to grind can read and understand that from a purely academic position. You have reading comprehension problems or are just a tosser.

a reply to: Logarock

I don't believe those things because I live in the 21st century and have studied the physical properties of liquids, solids, and gases (things that were BARELY theorized about back in those times) as well as the finality of death (especially without supporting technology). Meanwhile, people back in those days used to believe that a god came down to earth disguised as a swan, seduced a woman (the mother of helen of troy btw), who subsequently gave birth to a demi-god.

As for your Constantine bit, if it wasn't for him, your cult would have died out LONG ago. It may have survived for another few hundreds after his death, but it certainly wouldn't have lasted to today.
Constantine's Impact on Christianity

Constantine's reign as Roman emperor (A.D. 306-337) dramatically changed the direction of Christianity, though in ways far different from those portrayed in The Da Vinci Code. This grew out of his strategy for unifying his empire by creating a "catholic"—meaning universal —church that would blend elements from many religions into one.

While Constantine supposedly converted to Christianity in 312, he wasn't baptized until on his deathbed 25 years later. In the intervening years he had his wife and eldest son murdered, and from all appearances he continued as a worshipper of the sun god. Long after his supposed conversion he had coins minted with a portrait of himself on one side and a depiction of his "companion, the unconquered Sol [sun]" on the other.

The "Christianity" Constantine endorsed was already considerably different from that practiced by Jesus Christ and the apostles. The emperor accelerated the change by his own hatred of Jews and religious practices he considered Jewish.

For example, at the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325), church authorities essentially replaced the biblical Passover with Easter, a popular holiday rooted in ancient springtime fertility celebrations. Endorsing this change, Constantine announced: "It appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast [Easter] we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul . . . Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd" (Eusebius, Life of Constantine 3, 18-19, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1979, second series, Vol. 1, pp. 524-525).

Constantine's affection for sun worship had earlier led him to endorse Sunday, the first day of the week and a day dedicated to honoring the sun, as a weekly day of rest in the Roman empire . This created considerable hardship on those Jews and true Christians who continued to keep the biblical Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. (A century later the Council of Laodicea would essentially outlaw Sabbath-keeping and Christian observance of the biblical Holy Days.)

If it wasn't for Constantine, your idea of Christianity (if you even would have one) and what it believes would be VASTLY different.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

I don't believe those things because I live in the 21st century and have studied the physical properties of liquids, solids, and gases (things that were BARELY theorized about back in those times) as well as the finality of death (especially without supporting technology). Meanwhile, people back in those days used to believe that a god came down to earth disguised as a swan, seduced a woman (the mother of helen of troy btw), who subsequently gave birth to a demi-god.

Yea! But I don't care when you lived everybody understood you just don't walk on water. And yea folks knew what death was and what it looked like. There is nothing to consider really in an argument that folks then didn't understand these things. What a modern age scientific pecksniffery!

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: windword


Dude when Jesus said "I Am" he was clearly claiming to be God and was certainly understood that way by those that tried to kill him on the spot. What book are your reading? Even someone with no point to make or ax to grind can read and understand that from a purely academic position. You have reading comprehension problems or are just a tosser.

First of all. "I Am" was NOT the name of God, which was "yhwh".

Also, as I've stated before in this thread, biblical Jesus taught the doctrine of "pre-existence', which was a common Jewish belief system. You can find it's roots in the book of Jasher.

Thirdly, what part of this scripture do you reject or refuse to grok? Does God have a God?

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Does God need to rape a virgin girl to procure a body suit? Does God need to disguise himself in a flesh body, get himself murdered so that he can sacrifice his meaty flesh to himself, to save us from himself and the Hell that he created for those whose free he couldn't control?

a reply to: windword


Hay they were not splitting hairs, they understood He was claiming to be the God of the Bush and was also claiming to have preexistence before Abraham. They even said "You being a man claim to be God". There is nothing to misunderstand there.

a reply to: Logarock

Didn't Jesus clear it up when he asked "Isn't it written in your book, "I said ye are gods"? What do you think he meant by that"; That the pharisees were gods?

Again, what does this mean?

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Does God have a God?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

The major trouble in understanding god is that god is one. there are no two sides, no dualism and no separation.
In God everything is one. So Holy Spirit is one with god, Jesus Christus is one in god and all Angels are one in god.

The Second Major problem for time based thinking (which we use atm) is, God is timeless, eternal.
He has no time, He sees all time as now, or better say he knows all what is happening in now. He has no laws but his own.

Imagine god as energy, but dont make this as belief.
A Energy which knows everything.

He Has created his son, i think because god didnt wanted to be alone, well at least thats what he has been told me once.

For better understanding of god's one'nes with everything, imagine an ocean(as if it is god). When god creates then it is like when you take 1 droplet out of the ocean, it is still god, but smaller and it has its own name, but has the same power which god has. And when you put the dropplet of water back into the ocean, it still exist there but as part of god.
The only trouble is that there is no live existing outisde god.

now, from my understanding, (im reading acim) the jesus which has dictated in year 1965~1972:

God Created his son, and gave him everything so that he can create like god created. This brings great joy to both of them.

Well once in eternity, there was a tiny little mad idea, that son of god has forgotten to laugh. Beeing forgetfull, this idea became serious to son of god, and once he got asleep, and idea has turned against the son of god.

i can only guess that this was the beginning of the physical world, because the son of god asked himself what he is,
and tried to imagine himself, which has made an image of son of god. the power which has been given to him
(of god) made the physical manifestation of the now called ego of son of god.

This ego wants to survive, keeping the power only by the belief from the sleeping son of god.
and the ego has splitted himself in this trial to survive.

well something like this has started this world,but the best part is, that in the eternity this has never happened.

Jesus, which you know from the bible, is only a figure, an idol and has nothing to do with the real jesus.

The ego has told you what to belive. But the Ego was Created without love, (god creates only with love and only what is crated with it exists)

This ego has splitted the mind of son of god in (how many ppl are on earth atm ?) pieces.

There is a way of undoing the ego. And jesus was the first one who has done the practices of undoing in the right way.
Because god knows no death, only life, jesus was manifested as pure love to reinterpret this law again.

As son of god has created ego, god gave an answer to this. He gave us the Holy Spirit. Holy spirit is a voice of god which speaks for god.

Now the time trouble again:
god, holy spirit and even jesus, they exists in now. we who live in time and still have this ego we live in the past.
if you want to see the past, look. Try to say "now", and then hear it. Now do it again. you will see, there is a time
difference between thinking and saying it and even hearing it. So what we see is actually the past, and the future is
made by thinking.

The time trouble, for few ppl is mainly seeing is beliving. but this is not how god creates. Its your ego which wants you to belive that the past is real. Every story which you know from jesus you should put away.
Because everything you have learned of the past , is, if you look carefully, actually from school, books, movies, and tales.
Really, look at it, everything we know of the past is learned.
There is a song which describes this perfectly : supertramp - logical song lyrics



Judgement is one function of the ego, which keeps the past real in the future. Gods calls you for forgiveness so he can make you happy by undoing the effect of the past in the present. But you are judging, because you learned it.
Everything outside you is learning you what to do, but you are not outside, you are inside, and the world you see
is only an illusion, images which shall show you what you are.

The only real way to allow god to change everything is by forgiveness.


How can jesus be god ? well the answer to this is only by your belief.Remember, a part of you is still a part of the god. and your belief can create god's.
In reality, jesus is the same son of god as our souls, and should not be made a god, because you would create without love and because you dont really know jesus.
The real Jesus can help you, but you need to unlearn everything you know about him. especialy the part of crucification which in reality never happened (the time trouble).
He is still here arround and helping the son of god to be released from his nightmares and restoring the kindgom of heaven to his brothers (our souls, which are one anyway).
If you keep an open mind, and call for him, he will help you too.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Krazysh0t


Its not circular reasoning its testimony. I am confident that the men that wrote these reports also understood just how ridiculous much of this testimony would sound to most people.

Nope, it's not testimony. Every word attributed to Jesus was written multiple generations after he allegedly lived by people who never heard him say a word.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Now don't be a hypocrite. You certainly don't believe Jesus walked on water or raised the dead. Christians were persecuted for actually believing this stuff, feed to lions, burnt at the stake ect. And get another argument besides this tired old Constantine crap. He was just the pagan answer, co opt, when they couldn't control Christianly after 100s of years.

There is no evidence that Christians were ever fed to the lions because of their beliefs. Criminals were sometimes fed to the lions and some of them were probably Christians. Where is the evidence that they were burned at the stake for believing that Jesus walked on water or raised the dead? Cite some contemporaneous documentation to prove your claims.

a reply to: Hombre

If God is one, and the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Angels are all one with God, then so are we, right? If God is one where is there a place, or state, where God isn't?

a reply to: windword

to answer this, only a son of god, which is free to create as his father do, believes that he IS this body.

what you call we, the bodies are illusions. you are not this body. you are a soul who believes that the body is real. (it is really hard to write something to not appear as judgement, because i really dont know if you do belive that you are body or not).
The time is trouble here, for you and me its happening now. but for god it never happened.

The god ISNT in the past and surely isnt in the future, because this doesnt exists for god.

well im still learning so dont expect that i have every answer. the only thing you should think about is: how to write/speak about some thing
that is one, and at the same time it is everything that ever is, ever was and ever will be.

to write about it you could write for years and many books but you still wouldnt decribe it perfectly. its beyond our understanding, as brain users.

but to describe god, its enough to say "God is" and then to be silent. thats the real way to talk about god.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

So if you aren't going to waste any time with me, why did you respond to me in the first place? No one else seems to have.

My question was this:

To everyone in the thread quoting Jesus quotes, what makes him so trustworthy?

So explain to me why a Jesus quote makes Jesus trustworthy. To me that looks like circular reasoning (a logical fallacy). What would you call it?

I think you should covet to personal relationship with Jesus.
And once you receive Him, all the doubts you have about Him will instantly cease, guaranteed.