CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

a reply to: Bassago

I see your post as an attempt to pass it off as something official when its not. My post above, had you actually read it, points out your posts where you intentionally mislead.

Since you cant spin that you resort to coming at me.

Good luck.

a reply to: Xcathdra

There you go again.This thread and links are about the CFR admission that the Ukraine crisis is the Wests fault.

Yes and I stand by that. You cannot maintain a website, publish things (and they did publish the article) and then try to claim they have no connection or that they disavow the article. In fact they said nothing of the sort.

They publish it they own it as far as I'm concerned. Trying to pawn it off on somebody else is lame at best. As I've said many times, the Ukraine crisis is the Wests fault, just like Iraq, Libya, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. I agree with the author, get over it.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: Xcathdra

There you go again.This thread and links are about the CFR admission that the Ukraine crisis is the Wests fault.

Yes and I stand by that. You cannot maintain a website, publish things (and they did publish the article) and then try to claim they have no connection or that they disavow the article. In fact they said nothing of the sort.

They publish it they own it as far as I'm concerned. Trying to pawn it off on somebody else is lame at best. As I've said many times, the Ukraine crisis is the Wests fault, just like Iraq, Libya, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. I agree with the author, get over it.

As far as you're concerned.

But that's not how the real world works.

The article, again, is the opinion on a single man. One person.

NOT the CFR.

Just because they published it, does not mean they stand behind it. You only assume they do.

As I showed, any one can submit to the CFR. They may choose to publish it or not. If they feel it was well written and thought out, they'll publish it.

The author of the article is well known, and has written many books and pieces on many things around the world in past decades. But, he does not speak for the CFR (even though he was partnered with them a few decades ago).

Does it invalidate his opinion? Of course not. Just as everyone here, he certainly has a right to voice his opinion, and try to show arguments for his opinion based on facts and sources.

But at the end of the day, it remains the same: it's an opinion piece done by a single person, and may not reflect the CFR's views.

Trying to say it does, without any backing to show that, would be like saying any posts that the Mods here on ATS make, must be the view of ATS.....and we all know that is not true.

a reply to: eriktheawful

The article, again, is the opinion on a single man.

From what I have seen this "opinion" matches facts in Ukraine. Regardless of what Western MSM likes to put out as propaganda their outrage against Russia is unsubstantiated at best and to be fair mostly bald faced lies.

Putin had the Malaysian plane shot down? Putin is artillery bombing Ukraine. Putin's convoy is an "invasion" even though they already left back to Russia. Etc, etc, etc.

The west didn't send McCain, Biden, (Biden's son,) Soros NGO's the US State Department (and their $5 billion), Nuland and her cronies. Give me a break.

And then Ukraine has hidden the ATC transcripts of the Boeing shoot down, (and of course) Ukraine isn't ballistic missile bombing civilians in east Ukraine and on and on and on and on.

Quite frankly I astounded anyone believes the propaganda coming out of the west. Oh and that the IMF didn't force this war to begin with.

IMF Warns Ukraine: Fight For The East Or No Money

** IF UKRAINE GOVERNMENT LOSES EFFECTIVE CONTROL OVER EAST OF COUNTRY, $17 BLN IMF BAILOUT WOULD NEED TO BE "REDESIGNED"

Which, roughly translated, appears to mean go to war with pro-Russian forces (and thus Russia itself if Putin sees his apparent countrymen in trouble) or you don't get your money!

a reply to: Bassago

I'm not doubting the man's opinion and information that he researched and wrote about.

I'm showing that the answer is NO. CFR did not state that they back up every single thing that the man wrote about simply because they published what he wrote.

It is your OPINION that they do.

In other words: You misrepresented the article when you created this thread with your thread title, and in several posts that you made by saying so.

The "title" of the original article writen by John Mearsheimer reads: "Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault
The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin"....there is no "CFR" in front of that.

The title from the article that you pulled in your OP actually reads: "Council On Foreign Relations: The Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s – Not Putin’s – Fault" from Washington's Blog......which is run by Alex Floum of 9/11 Inside Job fame.

So no...you did not cite the article's title correctly....nor did you cite the title of the actual article correctly....and no where at CFR will you find them saying that they fully back John's article that they published.

I could really careless if you think it's all the west's fault......or if you think it's all Putin's fault.

I do care about people posting accurate information however. And saying CFR is behind John, is your subjective opinion.

Not a fact.

originally posted by: [post=18328699]
This is Russia's fault and no one else's and no amount of spin is going to convince me or others its not.

Its Russians supporting the Russian led rebellion.
Its Russian weapons being supplied to the Russian rebels.
Its Russian heavy military equipment being supplied to the Russian led rebels.
Its Russian training to the Russian led rebels.
Its Russian equipment operated by Russian rebels that brought down MH 17.
Its Russian arrogance and a preconceived notion that they are somehow superior to non Russians (it didn't work out for the Nazis but apparently Putin stopped with history and the cold war).

This mess is Russia's fault from beginning to end.

That's not just my opinion, its the view of the bulk of the countries on this planet, not to mention international organizations, and its supported by facts you and others ignore.

I have just one wee question; "IF the rebels have all that Russian equipment, and such; Why are they loosing?"

originally posted by: Bassago
IMF Warns Ukraine: Fight For The East Or No Money

** IF UKRAINE GOVERNMENT LOSES EFFECTIVE CONTROL OVER EAST OF COUNTRY, $17 BLN IMF BAILOUT WOULD NEED TO BE "REDESIGNED"

So if I understand this correctly; Ukraine is being paid $17billion to start a war?!??

originally posted by: tanka418
I have just one wee question; "IF the rebels have all that Russian equipment, and such; Why are they loosing?"

Because contrary to what some people claim Russia is not invincible and not all Russian military equipment has "cosmic" technology as some have claimed. The Russian leadership is not perfect and are prone to mistakes. Contrary to popular opinion Ukraine and its military are not all idiots and their leadership are not as stupid as Russia, or some in this thread, like to think.

Also, the rebellion, contrary to what pro Russians claim, are not the avid pro Russians as people like to claim. It also means the support some like claim as being in the upper 80% is in fact a lie.

Also, Russian state media / propaganda does not allow the other side of the story, like how the rebels are loosing.

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: Bassago
IMF Warns Ukraine: Fight For The East Or No Money

** IF UKRAINE GOVERNMENT LOSES EFFECTIVE CONTROL OVER EAST OF COUNTRY, $17 BLN IMF BAILOUT WOULD NEED TO BE "REDESIGNED"

So if I understand this correctly; Ukraine is being paid $17billion to start a war?!??

You do not understand this correctly. Zerohedge wants you to panic and sell Western European stocks and buy BRICs stocks. This is how stock brokers make their money. The IMF has calculated its loan based on Ukraine's ability to fully exploit its natural gas resources and industrial capacity. If they cannot do so because they lose Eastern Ukraine,obviously the loan would need to be redesigned to reflect the altered capacity.

Once again, zerohedge is not to be relied on for information. They exist solely to appeal to nervous investors whose panic can be exploited by stock brokers. Never make an investment choice based on anything you read on zerohedge. It is a sucker's game.

a reply to: Bassago

Yes and I stand by that. You cannot maintain a website, publish things (and they did publish the article) and then try to claim they have no connection or that they disavow the article. In fact they said nothing of the sort.

They publish it they own it as far as I'm concerned. Trying to pawn it off on somebody else is lame at best. As I've said many times, the Ukraine crisis is the Wests fault, just like Iraq, Libya, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. I agree with the author, get over it.

Since, in your opinion, if a website publishes something they stand by it, please get off ATS, as I cannot support your opinion. Or does it not really work that way?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: tanka418
I have just one wee question; "IF the rebels have all that Russian equipment, and such; Why are they loosing?"

Because contrary to what some people claim Russia is not invincible and not all Russian military equipment has "cosmic" technology as some have claimed. The Russian leadership is not perfect and are prone to mistakes. Contrary to popular opinion Ukraine and its military are not all idiots and their leadership are not as stupid as Russia, or some in this thread, like to think.

Also, the rebellion, contrary to what pro Russians claim, are not the avid pro Russians as people like to claim. It also means the support some like claim as being in the upper 80% is in fact a lie.

Also, Russian state media / propaganda does not allow the other side of the story, like how the rebels are loosing.

Giving up some areas so you have to protect less is strategy, not losing.

They are capturing more and more equipment, no wonder EU had come up with 500 million aid.

This sure doesn`t look like losing to me :

DPR army encircles large Kiev military grouping

DONETSK, August 24 /ITAR-TASS/. The army of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) has blocked completely a large grouping of Kiev military forces in six republican settlements on Sunday.

The headquarters of the 8th army corps, 28th and 30th motor rifle brigades, 95th Ukrainian air mobile brigade, punitive battalions Aidar, Donbass and Shakhtersk were entrapped, the DPR army headquarters said citing reconnaissance data.

“Around five thousand servicemen with weapons and around 50 tanks, more than 200 combat armoured vehicles, about 50 multiple launch rocket systems Grad and Uragan, more than 100 artillery guns and mortars were blocked in the trap,” the army headquarters said.

en.itar-tass.com...

Luhansk Militia Starts Offensive Against Two Large Cities in Southeastern Ukraine

DONETSK, August 24 (RIA Novosti) - Militia of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic have started an offensive against the cities of Severodonetsk and Debaltseve, militia’s representatives told RIA Novosti Sunday.

Severodonetsk is located in the northwest of Luhansk region, and parts of the militia retreated from the city in July. Debaltseve is in the east of Donetsk region, bordering Luhansk region.

On the way Debaltseve, self-defense forces destroyed Kiev’s reconnaissance and sabotage group of seven people and an infantry fighting vehicle, a howitzer, three other infantry fighting vehicles.

They also seized two checkpoints of the Kiev forces near the village of Beloye, as well as two T-72 tanks.

en.ria.ru...

Donetsk Militia Fighting its Way to Azov Sea

DONETSK, August 23 (RIA Novosti) – Ukrainian militia in the restive Donetsk region told RIA Novosti Saturday they were now fighting their way to the Sea of Azov in the country’s south.

A source in the militia headquarters told our correspondent that self-defense forces had been pounding government troops’ positions near the town of Novoazovsk, a port on the southeastern tip of Ukraine.

en.ria.ru...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Three infantry brigades were formed from militia units. A voluntary regiment was set up of Ukrainian servicemen, who had voluntarily taken DPR side, and Donbass coalminers.
“For the last two days two tank battalions, three multiple launch rocket system battalions, two self-propelled howitzer battalions, three battalions of cannon artillery guns of different calibers and eight mortar batteries have been formed of military hardware and weaponry militias had captured in a counteroffensive operation for the last two days,” the army headquarters noted.

en.itar-tass.com...

What a coincidence. Two days after everyone's attention was focused on a fleet of flashy white trucks, a well equipped army appears in Donetsk out of thin air! Hocus pocus! Putin the Prestidigitator strikes again. (Told you it was always intended as a distraction.)

a reply to: DJW001

Two days after everyone's attention was focused on a fleet of flashy white trucks, a well equipped army appears in Donetsk out of thin air!

But it was just a humanitarian aid convoy...

Oh that's right it was a convoy of humilitarian aid, I must have just read it wrong.

a reply to: eriktheawful

The title from the article that you pulled in your OP actually reads: "Council On Foreign Relations: The Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s – Not Putin’s – Fault" from Washington's Blog

Not sure what your point is, that is T&C for creating a thread. If you wish to make a different thread from a different article using a different source be my guest.

a reply to: DJW001

Since, in your opinion, if a website publishes something they stand by it, please get off ATS, as I cannot support your opinion. Or does it not really work that way?

Obviously you and a few others are really threatened by discussions you don't agree with. Don't think anyone has ever suggested I "get off ATS" before. I think you've actually set a new low here.

As for it working that way personally I don't let sites such as the NYT or WaPo or CFR hide behind "Op-Eds" and claim they aren't supporting the article. But feel free to pick and choose things as they support your POV.

Zerohedge wants you to panic and sell Western European stocks and buy BRICs stocks.

LOL now that is the saddest rebuttal I've seen yet but hey it's early. Please try to remain on topic.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

"Three infantry brigades were formed from militia units. A voluntary regiment was set up of Ukrainian servicemen, who had voluntarily taken DPR side, and Donbass coalminers.
“For the last two days two tank battalions, three multiple launch rocket system battalions, two self-propelled howitzer battalions, three battalions of cannon artillery guns of different calibers and eight mortar batteries have been formed of military hardware and weaponry militias had captured in a counteroffensive operation for the last two days,” the army headquarters noted."


What a coincidence. Two days after everyone's attention was focused on a fleet of flashy white trucks, a well equipped army appears in Donetsk out of thin air! Hocus pocus! Putin the Prestidigitator strikes again. (Told you it was always intended as a distraction.)

Sorry man, but, it looks to me like Putin had nothing at all t do with this...The article clearly states; "Captured" military equipment...that is as opposed to "imported"...which would make all that equipment Ukrainian in origin...NOT RUSSIAN!

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

"Three infantry brigades were formed from militia units. A voluntary regiment was set up of Ukrainian servicemen, who had voluntarily taken DPR side, and Donbass coalminers.
“For the last two days two tank battalions, three multiple launch rocket system battalions, two self-propelled howitzer battalions, three battalions of cannon artillery guns of different calibers and eight mortar batteries have been formed of military hardware and weaponry militias had captured in a counteroffensive operation for the last two days,” the army headquarters noted."


What a coincidence. Two days after everyone's attention was focused on a fleet of flashy white trucks, a well equipped army appears in Donetsk out of thin air! Hocus pocus! Putin the Prestidigitator strikes again. (Told you it was always intended as a distraction.)

Sorry man, but, it looks to me like Putin had nothing at all t do with this...The article clearly states; "Captured" military equipment...that is as opposed to "imported"...which would make all that equipment Ukrainian in origin...NOT RUSSIAN!

There`s another thing he`s ignoring :

They have formed big units and changed from guerrilla tactics to big operations with those captured weaponry, and they capture more and more. De Ukrainian army is not that good, if so they would have crushed the Separatists already. Motivation with most units also doesn`t seem to be that high (except maybe at the fascist units). That`s why they need to resort to the shelling of civilians.

“The DPR army headquarters have decided to give up action by small units and shift to military action by full-fledged formations and army units which are provided with full fire support,” the republican army headquarters said.

Three infantry brigades have been formed from militia units. A voluntary regiment has been set up to comprise Ukrainian servicemen, who have voluntarily taken the DPR side, and Donbass coalminers, the militia said.

“For the last two days, two tank battalions, three multiple launch rocket system battalions, two self-propelled howitzer battalions, three battalions of cannon artillery guns of different calibers and eight mortar batteries have been formed using military hardware and weaponry captured by militias in a counteroffensive operation for the last two days,” the DPR army headquarters said.

en.itar-tass.com...

a reply to: tanka418

Sorry man, but, it looks to me like Putin had nothing at all t do with this...The article clearly states; "Captured" military equipment...that is as opposed to "imported"...which would make all that equipment Ukrainian in origin...NOT RUSSIAN!

Do you see the source...of course it isn't going to say any Russian military equipment was used.

Now I have been looking for more sources, and there seems to only be that one...wonder why?

Just like Putin had nothing to do with Crimea and the eastern separatists...is that the type of "had nothing to do with it" that your talking about?

You can`t make this stuff up :

Europe needs a Ballistic Missile ‘Shield’ to protect against humanitarian aid convoys.

WTF ?

en.ria.ru...

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Just like Putin had nothing to do with Crimea and the eastern separatists...is that the type of "had nothing to do with it" that your talking about?

Same old tired western no proof accusations and hysteria speak trying to deflect who really started the problem.

"Arggh! Humanitarian aid convoy is invading!! NATO save us!!"

As far as the "had nothing to do with it" how about Kiev's denial of targeting and killing all those civilians but hey they need that IMF money right?

Guardian Video: Donetsk residents distraught after homes shelled by Ukrainian military

a reply to: tanka418

So if I understand this correctly; Ukraine is being paid $17billion to start a war?!??

Among other things yeah, pretty much. Don't forget Joe Biden's son R.Hunter Biden who now sits on the Board of Burisma Holdings which is trying to exploit shale gas reserves under... wait for it.. eastern Ukraine. There's quit a lot of this stuff going on it seems.

Company In Which Joe Biden's Son Is Director Prepares To Drill Shale Gas In East Ukraine