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originally posted by: demus
offer a way to guarantee Israel's safety with more than another Hamas promise.
stop killing innocent civilians, stop razing homes, stop shelling hospitals and return (at least some) stolen land, for beginning...
originally posted by: operation mindcrime
The whole issue of who started it and who is to blame is is ridiculous. Where two fight, two are to blame. So I would suggest that if Israel and Palestine can't play nice, they both pack up their stuff and leave the region. We could turn the place into the World's largest waterslide amusement park and be done with it.
originally posted by: demus
originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: demus
By listing a bunch of concessions then saying when you've conceded all that, we'll ask for more, you've missed the point of the thread and offered a completely unworkable position.
did I missed the point?
you are talking about survival of a Nation and I understand that from that point of view but are you taking away right of another Nation to survive?
I don't agree or promote any view posted here but I was thinking it should be acknowledged that Hamas is not out there to "relocate or destroy every Israeli" but to do exactly what is Israel trying to do - to survive as a Nation.
Article Thirty-One of the Charter states: "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions—Islam, Christianity and Judaism—to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."
Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Al-Zahar did not rule out the possibility of accepting a "temporary two-state solution"
Al-Zahar "did not rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state"
In late 2006, Ismail Haniyeh, the political leader of Hamas, said that if a Palestinian state was formed within the 1967 lines, Hamas was willing to declare a truce that could last as long as 20 years, and stated that Hamas will never recognize the "usurper Zionist government"
In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights"
On December 1, 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees," and "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles."
Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.
British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006"
the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.
Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Al-Zahar did not rule out the possibility of accepting a "temporary two-state solution"
Al-Zahar "did not rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state"
originally posted by: kwakakev
As for how to get both sides towards peace, put some MDMA (ecstasy) in the water supply. Not a lot, but some to help bolster peoples respect more than disdain for each other.
Even if this whole messed up Palael or Isrestine state issue is sorted, people are still going to die and kill each other. Is there any security issues that the IDF and Hamas work together rather than against on?
originally posted by: charles1952
Dear ATSers,
Everybody says they want peace and an acceptance of the other parties in the area, except for the Islamic leaders that don't say that...
How do we get the opposing parties to talk to each other at a peace table?
Of course, the solution can't be based on a cease fire, Hamas treats cease fires with a 50-50 attitude lately.
But maybe we can find a place where Hamas and Israel can reach an agreement.
Here's part of an article from 2012:
Khaled Meshal is the top political leader of Hamas, and entered Gaza for the first time this weekend. Here are some of his remarks to a mass rally celebrating Hamas’s 25th anniversary:
"Palestine, from the river to the sea, from north to south, is our land. Not an inch of it can be conceded. We cannot recognize the legitimacy of Israel’s occupation of Palestine. There is no legitimacy to occupation, and therefore no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take. Liberating Palestine, all of Palestine, is a duty, a right and a goal….we will liberate [Jerusalem] inch by inch, stone by stone, Islamic and Christian holy places. Israel has no right in Jerusalem…."
As to the recent UN vote giving “Palestine” the status of “non-member state,” Meshal said:
"Liberation first, then the state. The real state is the product of liberation, not the product of negotiations. Holy war and armed resistance are the real and right path to liberation and recovery of rights."
blogs.cfr.org...
So, we now know that Hamas wants the elimination of Israel.
When Pastor asked about the Hamas Charter, Meshal replied that it is a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons.
But assume for a moment, that by some strange twist of fate the Israeli government doesn't want their country to be eliminated. Is the best course of action to send Hamas a letter asking them not to?
Speaking of shelters, Hamas has done a lot of digging underground. It's really too bad that some one spilled coffee on their plans to build shelters for their people. Oh, well, you can't make martyrs without cracking a few skulls. Besides, they make good publicity photos, which the world will show over and over. It's no problem if they run out of pictures, Hamas has discovered how to create fake victim photos. They're not very believable, but their good enough to cause some more emotional outrage.
Israel, due to it's neo-fascist, Black and White thinking, accepts only two possibilities in their narrow minded way, stop Hamas, or don't stop Hamas. Those war mongers somehow think that stopping Hamas is a good idea. But the world knows better. If Israel does more than any other army in history to protect civilians in an urban area under attack, it proves that their intent is to kill kids. It's a shame that those 16 year old "kids" don't get a chance to gently put down their rifles, the stocks get scratched when they're dropped.
Oh, on a serious note? Hamas has admitted to firing three rockets at Dimona, the site of Israel's nuclear reactor. Iron Dome got one, the other two missed. Consider, for a moment, a Fukushima in Israel. I don't suppose Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Iran,and Syria would be too happy if radiation started coming their way.
Iran, by the way, is one of Hamas' great supporters and funders. How far is Iran from getting a short-range nuke? When they get one, might they share with Hamas?
Well, what solution do these attempts at peace (also known as conquest) lead us to? This is the unhappy conclusion I need to be dissuaded from. The only thing I can see is that Hamas must be completely destroyed as a threat.
The question is what to do with a terror organization that gives every appearance of wanting to go to paradise through committing "Suicide by IDF."
A top Pentagon intelligence official warned on Saturday that the destruction of Hamas would only lead to something more dangerous taking its place, as he offered a grim portrait of a period of enduring regional conflict.
“If Hamas were destroyed and gone, we would probably end up with something much worse. The region would end up with something much worse,” Flynn said at the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado.
“A worse threat that would come into the sort of ecosystem there … something like ISIS...”
originally posted by: daaskapital
originally posted by: charles1952
Dear ATSers,
Everybody says they want peace and an acceptance of the other parties in the area, except for the Islamic leaders that don't say that...
The Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, seeks peace. Israel and Hamas don't want it, though.
originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: demus
Dear demus,
Unfortunately, we're drifting from the point here. That happens in a lot of threads and I'd rather it not happen here. The question on the floor is "How can Israel guarantee it's safety and continued existence, with more than a Hamas promise to secure it?"
The secondary question is "If Hamas continues to fight against Israel and refuses peace terms, what should Israel's response be?"
With respect,
Charles1952
A nation has a duty to insure it's survival. What can Israel do to guarantee it's survival as the State of Israel?
RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said there is "no way" he will recognize Israel as a Jewish state and accept a Palestinian capital in just a portion of Israeli-annexed east Jerusalem, rebuffing what Palestinians fear will be key elements of a U.S. peace proposal.
Abbas' comments signaled that the gaps between him and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remain wide after seven months of mediation efforts by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.
Speaking to youth activists of his Fatah party, he suggested he would stand firm again, particularly over the demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
"They are pressing and saying, 'No peace without the Jewish state,'" he said, though not spelling out who is applying the pressure. "There is no way. We will not accept."
So, we now know that Hamas wants the elimination of Israel.
Indeed, Hamas has never hidden their true agendas.
As I've said, what reason would Israel have for working with this guy? Abbas wants to have total control and ownership of Jerusalem.
No, they should actually try working with Mahmoud Abbas and his unified government of Palestine.
While Israel is showing some restraint, they could try harder. Bombing hospitals, mosques and schools for suspicion that rockets may be located there, does not constitute the protection of civilians. If they really cared for the lives of civilians, they wouldn't bomb crowded areas, and instead, deploy special forces to raid and destroy the bombs.
Then you quote some of Lieutenant General Flynn's statements agreeing with you. But first, look at the logic of that. If ISIS is more dangerous than Hamas, couldn't they take over Palestine if they wanted to? Besides, what more would ISIS do? Use better rockets? If ISIS will be able to defeat Israel, it won't matter much where the attack is launched.
Hamas shouldn't be destroyed. If they are destroyed, another organisation will take their place. I am not the only one to share such an opinion
Flynn’s comments about the conflict came during a gloomy, broader assessment of unrest across the Middle East, including in Syria and Iraq. Flynn said bluntly: “Is there going to be a peace in the Middle East? Not in my lifetime.
once they are gone, hopefully the other arab states will step up and not let something like hamas grow again.
they need to be held accountable also, for peace in the area.
If you ask yourself why they were given the land by the British you'll find the answer. They deserved to have a country however they were given the wrong one. The only way to fix it is give them the land they should have been given and release Middle East to the Arab Nations.
Why should it be impossible to achieve both of these goals? (Although, I don't believe that Palestine will stop it's violence when they achieve statehood. Do you?) The entire rest of the world has done it. Israel has done it with some of its Muslim neighbors, Egypt being the most striking example.
Israel can not and should not back down from wanting to secure their nation. Palestinians can not and should not back down from wanting a nation they can call their own.
Of course you're right. If I wanted to change the world, or even a nation or a state, I wouldn't spend time on ATS, no one who wanted to change the real world would.
Both sides will continue to do what THEY think they have to. Nothing I say or anyone on the internet says will change that.
No side is right. No side is wrong.