Israel seems to have found something big and hidden...

It's interesting to read how this is framed from the media here. I say it's interesting because it's almost mentioned as a secondary thing to the first half of the article which focuses more on rockets fired and found so far. They come to what may be far more critical, afterward.

Well, this seemed important to share in the short term, because this is a very disturbing development and escalation of capability, if it's all that it's seemingly described as here. What is said and not said is equally unnerving, in my personal opinion.

Israel has been acting a bit different in this, and they've seemed...driven. Now I think I understand better, why. These must have been more rumor than fact before this, for the scale and sheer strategic importance. Now? They have a real big problem if they can't leave knowing how far and in which directions these actually go.

Israeli forces have discovered a much more extensive network of tunnels than expected. The labyrinth of interconnected passages, bunkers, command centres, weapons stores and underground rocket-launching sites, with multiple shafts, has been dubbed Lower Gaza by some. Hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete have been used for construction of tunnels, some of which are 30m below ground and run for several miles.

(Emphasis added by me)

The tunnels have posed huge tactical challenges for the IDF. Large numbers of troops are needed to guard military engineers who are exposed to Hamas sniper fire, anti-tank missiles and rocket-propelled grenades while working on detonating tunnel shafts.

The IDF has tacitly admitted it may not find, let alone destroy, the entire network. "The end position of this mission needs to determine that these [tunnels] no longer lead to Israel," Lerner said.

Source: The Guardian

That last sentence, following the admission right before it, leaves me really alert for more information. It's also been odd to watch how Hamas has gotten pasted here ...as they have before...but this time, is playing strange about refusing cease fires. They normally love them for a short time, anyway. They are important for rearming and reorganizing, in past examples.

Why refuse this time? What did Israel stumble into here? Smuggling tunnels dug across the Southern Gaza border is nothing new and almost synonymous with the struggles against the import controls and blockade. However, formal working tunnels with actual facilities for daily use, 90 feet below where bombs will strike?

How much might this have changed and have we seen everything which may come of this yet?

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Israeli forces have discovered a much more extensive network of tunnels than expected.

Thats usually what happens when bombed into tunneldom. Just like the Viet Cong and NVA in Vietnam.

Viet Cong (VC) tunnels in Vietnam

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

They should use overpressure devices to cause maximum tunnel destruction of flammable liquid pumped into them to burn and smoke there enemy out black smoke may then also indicate tunnel shaft's and ventilation structure's as well as other access point's.

They also need to build there own counter Tunnel network with reinforced Air Lock interchange sections to prevent similar tactic's used against them should Israel be over run, they actually do have some but they are not sufficiant for long duration seige tactic's and where built for completely different purpose, ie nuclear silo's and air raid shelters as well as unconnected short period attack shelter's.

What else do you do when your opponent dwarfs you in military might.

Tunnels work! Vietnam proved that.

Now we can see where humanitarian aid is going unless some outside agency is paying for all of this and someone likely is. It just means that Hamas is getting smarter.

It begs the question though. If Hamas has all of these tunnels, then why are they still storing rockets in schools. There would be no need.

Do we have any proof that these tunnels exist or is this just a make believe scenario by Israel to pander to public opinion.

If the tunnels do exist then why is Israel bombing schools?

This raises more questions than answers and does not make any sense at all.

Perhaps that is why it is a give away paragraph at the end, sort of testing the waters of public opinion to see if it floats.

Where is reality.

P

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete have been used for construction of tunnels

That statement I find very, very hard to believe. It makes it sound like something from Men in Black.

I won't go into the details of concrete and the required reinforcement for it to be effective. Sounds like a gross exaggeration to me, not only that but more ludicrous demonisation to cover their own maniacal operations.

Kind Regards
Myselfaswell

I find it even more interesting, that these 'tunnels' are concrete in nature and as extensive as they are imagined to be....To me that means a major construction project has been taking place under Israel's nose without them knowing about it.. that also means major funding and man power.......All while in secret...This does indeed lead to a whole host of questions.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
It's interesting to read how this is framed from the media here. I say it's interesting because it's almost mentioned as a secondary thing to the first half of the article which focuses more on rockets fired and found so far. They come to what may be far more critical, afterward.

Well, this seemed important to share in the short term, because this is a very disturbing development and escalation of capability, if it's all that it's seemingly described as here. What is said and not said is equally unnerving, in my personal opinion.

Israel has been acting a bit different in this, and they've seemed...driven. Now I think I understand better, why. These must have been more rumor than fact before this, for the scale and sheer strategic importance. Now? They have a real big problem if they can't leave knowing how far and in which directions these actually go.

Israeli forces have discovered a much more extensive network of tunnels than expected. The labyrinth of interconnected passages, bunkers, command centres, weapons stores and underground rocket-launching sites, with multiple shafts, has been dubbed Lower Gaza by some. Hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete have been used for construction of tunnels, some of which are 30m below ground and run for several miles.

(Emphasis added by me)

The tunnels have posed huge tactical challenges for the IDF. Large numbers of troops are needed to guard military engineers who are exposed to Hamas sniper fire, anti-tank missiles and rocket-propelled grenades while working on detonating tunnel shafts.

The IDF has tacitly admitted it may not find, let alone destroy, the entire network. "The end position of this mission needs to determine that these [tunnels] no longer lead to Israel," Lerner said.

Source: The Guardian

That last sentence, following the admission right before it, leaves me really alert for more information. It's also been odd to watch how Hamas has gotten pasted here ...as they have before...but this time, is playing strange about refusing cease fires. They normally love them for a short time, anyway. They are important for rearming and reorganizing, in past examples.

Why refuse this time? What did Israel stumble into here? Smuggling tunnels dug across the Southern Gaza border is nothing new and almost synonymous with the struggles against the import controls and blockade. However, formal working tunnels with actual facilities for daily use, 90 feet below where bombs will strike?

How much might this have changed and have we seen everything which may come of this yet?

Well, we have seen the pictures of the tunnels perfectly executed and systematic, seemingly concrete and poured into shuttering, that would take time and perhaps a reason for Israel's prohibited substances in the blockade, 2007–present blockade of the Gaza Strip ... Construction materials including metal pipes, steel and cement are banned. We also saw some terrorists emerging from the tunnels and the exits were tiny one man jobs directly at the surface, and the tunnels themselves were strictly personnel in the given. That doesn't mean to say that there are much larger ones in the offing, perhaps caverns/cavernous staging points. Israel is certainly afraid of tunnels converging on any cities at best. At worst, they might think that the unenforceable blockade worked against them in the long run, and that all the surface stuff is just a blind to what might actually be going on down below..like a big bang for instance.

Those people have been digging tunnels for thousands of years. Probably some of the tunnels they found are old tunnels, maybe the people don't even know some of them exist unless they accidentally run into one. Maybe there are ancient treasures in some of those tunnels that the Jewish people want. Maybe they know to look for them now.

Great way to steal from the people who do not know that the riches are even there.

This is just speculation based on what I have learned recently of the intensive tunnel networks in that area of the world.

I would bet that some of the jewish people know of these tunnels already, selling goods to the people from Gaza. Maybe The Government in Israel should actually check their own people out, they may find a lot of trading has been going on.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000
I wonder how intricate the tunnels are? They mention booby traps in the article and it has me wondering if the Palestinians might have built a heavily fortified bunker suitable to withstand everything the Israelis can throw at it. It will be interesting to see how and if the media will cover this in the future.

Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Great find, Wrabbit. The elaborate extensive ness of these tunnels makes me think of the tunnels under the US/ Mexico border. I wonder why hasn't Hamas used bombs in Israel if the tunnels extend into Israeli territory. Perhaps that is why Israel is so intent on destroying them.

a reply to: HiMyNameIsCal

My thoughts as well.....I can't help but to keep thinking that old saying applies here....follow the money.....a bunch of oppressed,'uneducated' , people living in the Gaza strip are not going to be able to pull something like this, without major funding and support.

originally posted by: highfreq
a reply to: HiMyNameIsCal

My thoughts as well.....I can't help but to keep thinking that old saying applies here....follow the money.....a bunch of oppressed,'uneducated' , people living in the Gaza strip are not going to be able to pull something like this, without major funding and support.

You raise a good point here, they definitely hint at that in the article.

"We have to admit we were facing good fighters, very well equipped with sophisticated weapons systems, accurate weapons, heavy weapons including mortars, booby traps," a senior military source told the Guardian after the battle of Shujai'iya, Israel's bloodiest assault in the two-week Gaza conflict. "It was very difficult fighting. It's very difficult for us to surprise them. They were simply waiting for us."

Honestly though it doesn't surprise me, after all necessity is the mother of invention. There has probably been some sneaky business happening in Palestine for quite some time and I'll bet it caught the Israelis off guard a little bit.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Those people have been digging tunnels for thousands of years. Probably some of the tunnels they found are old tunnels, maybe the people don't even know some of them exist unless they accidentally run into one. Maybe there are ancient treasures in some of those tunnels that the Jewish people want. Maybe they know to look for them now.

Great way to steal from the people who do not know that the riches are even there.

This is just speculation based on what I have learned recently of the intensive tunnel networks in that area of the world.

I would bet that some of the jewish people know of these tunnels already, selling goods to the people from Gaza. Maybe The Government in Israel should actually check their own people out, they may find a lot of trading has been going on.

I would stick with the military/security issue, everything else would be secondary, even fecking ET.
Here's a short video of the tunnels,



At 0.23 on the right of the tunnel you can clearly see hewn stone blocks, that makes me think that tunnel starts/is the start in an inhabited area at or near ground level. Even if that is wrong, the Israeli government would take no chances, remember Natenyahu saying, "We told the people to leave their homes" He is looking for that hole, and like HAMAS people don't matter so much, just the need to have a poor disclaimer in vogue.

You can even see the reasoning for Natenyahu's anxiety to give Iran a poke, (by somebody else of course) in case there should be a 'nuke' around the corner, or already there.. the big bang from below, not above.

originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: rickymouse
Those people have been digging tunnels for thousands of years. Probably some of the tunnels they found are old tunnels, maybe the people don't even know some of them exist unless they accidentally run into one. Maybe there are ancient treasures in some of those tunnels that the Jewish people want. Maybe they know to look for them now.

Great way to steal from the people who do not know that the riches are even there.

This is just speculation based on what I have learned recently of the intensive tunnel networks in that area of the world.

I would bet that some of the jewish people know of these tunnels already, selling goods to the people from Gaza. Maybe The Government in Israel should actually check their own people out, they may find a lot of trading has been going on.

I would stick with the military/security issue, everything else would be secondary, even fecking ET.
Here's a short video of the tunnels,

At 0.23 on the right of the tunnel you can clearly see hewn stone blocks, that makes me think that tunnel starts/is the start in an inhabited area at or near ground level. Even if that is wrong, the Israeli government would take no chances, remember Natenyahu saying, "We told the people to leave their homes" He is looking for that hole, and like HAMAS people don't matter so much, just the need to have a poor disclaimer in vogue.

You can even see the reasoning for Natenyahu's anxiety to give Iran a poke, (by somebody else of course) in case there should be a 'nuke' around the corner, or already there.. the big bang from below, not above.

BTW, the latter part of the commentary is IMO, just rhetoric given to the reporter. You don't build tunnels like that to throw stones or grenades.

I agree, pump it full of flammable liquid then set it a light.
everywhere smoke comes out of the ground, drop a bomb.

a reply to: pheonix358
maybe they arnt, ask yourself who controls the MSM.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

They should use overpressure devices to cause maximum tunnel destruction of flammable liquid pumped into them to burn and smoke there enemy out black smoke may then also indicate tunnel shaft's and ventilation structure's as well as other access point's.

They also need to build there own counter Tunnel network with reinforced Air Lock interchange sections to prevent similar tactic's used against them should Israel be over run, they actually do have some but they are not sufficiant for long duration seige tactic's and where built for completely different purpose, ie nuclear silo's and air raid shelters as well as unconnected short period attack shelter's.

I'd just put down flea infested rats and mosquitos. I guess the reason they haven't been used for attacks is that they are more useful for transportation and storage. If you consider that the crust of the Earth is 30km deep and the average room or corridor is 2.5metres high, then there are theoretically 12000 levels or floors in any location.

Now we start the tunnel wars.

Israel could use small TBMs to tunnel under Gaza and intercept Hamas tunnels.
www.therobbinscompany.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

First with iron dome Israel has started to shut down Hamas use of rockets.

Now israel can really screw with there tunnels with the right equipment.

With TBMs Israel could drive 100s of feet of tunnels for every 10 feet Hamas could dig by hand.