Israel seems to have found something big and hidden...

originally posted by: logicguy69

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

There are no Israeli checkpoints inside Gaza. Check your facts.

Their country is bigger than Gaza. Check yourself.

a reply to: RAY1990

I don't know wrabbit I'm no construction expert but surely Israel itself would notice thousands of tonnes of earth being moved with all those drones they have, miles of tunnels and command facilities will create a lot of debris.

I think it's important to note, Israel has been chasing smuggler tunnels and some elaborate ones for more years than the current fighting has been going on. Think much further back for how long tunnels like this have been dg. Likely back beyond modern history, for that matter. Someone here mentioned the possibility that Hamas could have literally broken into existing tunnels by sheer happy accident and found themselves the happy recipient of history's legacy. Hard to say...

The idea that tunnels couldn't exist by something like disposal of dirt...in an area Israeli control does not exist in, and no Israeli people enter in much under armored battalion strength, is a tough one to get for me. I'd say Hamas can and has done just about whatever it's chosen to.

Another thing to consider...

What seems to be new and different here, after seeing pics and evidence of past tunnels online, is the scale and scope as well as sophistication of these ones. Of course, Mursi and the Muslim Brotherhood fully controlled the Southern Gaza Land access point at Rafah for a good long time. Hamas *IS* Muslim Brotherhood. I'm thinking import restrictions weren't QUITE what they'd normally have been, while Mursi held power in Cairo. Who knows how much raw material and other supplies came in during that unusual period?

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: logicguy69

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

There are no Israeli checkpoints inside Gaza. Check your facts.

Their country is bigger than Gaza. Check yourself.

Yet this thread is about the tunnels in Gaza.... These tunnels have absolutely nothing to do with bypassing checkpoints, there are no checkpoints anywhere near these tunnels - you're only fooling yourself with that one. Unless you mean the border between Gaza and Israel as a checkpoint, in which case Israel has every right to prevent them from entering Israel. These tunnels are for hiding/smuggling weapons and entering Israel to kidnap/kill Israelis, pure and simple.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Oh I hear you wrabbit, a while ago we talked about N Korea and the tunnels there. Nobody suspected the existence of tunnels you could have two railway tracks side by side within it. They are real though and huge.

It's possible they recycled old tunnels, it's possible these tunnels lead miles into other nations too and that is where the rubble etc is being transported once excavated, I just don't know.

I can conclude however that:
A. these tunnels have been in construction for a long time.
B. They are not as sophisticated and as large as suggested.
or C. These tunnels are that vast with so much manpower and resources behind them they can work without interruption.

I suspect A or B, C would suggest people with have worked these tunnels with the help of some experienced civil engineers and all the tools they'd need with them. The concrete production is my biggest problem with C.

Just my opinion, as always I'm probably wrong buddy

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: logicguy69

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

There are no Israeli checkpoints inside Gaza. Check your facts.

Their country is bigger than Gaza. Check yourself.

Yet this thread is about the tunnels in Gaza.... These tunnels have absolutely nothing to do with bypassing checkpoints, there are no checkpoints anywhere near these tunnels - you're only fooling yourself with that one. Unless you mean the border between Gaza and Israel as a checkpoint, in which case Israel has every right to prevent them from entering Israel. These tunnels are for hiding/smuggling weapons and entering Israel to kidnap/kill Israelis, pure and simple.

Entering Israel is Palestinians right. It is their land. Tjose waving the star of David while they murder innocent children by the hundreds are military occupants and nothing they do is in defence since they are occupying by force. Give your head a shake. That is like saying the US was defending itself against the Vietnamese.

originally posted by: PLAYERONE01
a reply to: Agit8dChop
i dont know mate they could have dug all the way under tel aviv, there could even be a nuke there right now. man that would be a popcorn, brews and deck chair event...

shocking

Hey guys! I come with some gifts from my exploring of the topic last night. Forgive me for not having these with the OP, but I suffer from Internet Connection Speed Syndrome. Yes.. ICSS. It's a horrible affliction where uploading a picture can take long seconds. (gasp of horror!) so..I'm not doing much for that. Here though? It seemed important to support with images of what exists or has already been established by finding it in the past.


As seen above, they have obviously learned the lesson about vertical access and the critical nature of protecting it. Cave-ins must have been a real hard trial and error process in that soil for much of this.




The first pic is from Time Magazine. The second is from the Australian. They both show previous Gaza smuggling tunnels and those aren't the belly crawl type one might imagine. They've been working on a higher level for a long time, it seems.



That's a topside pic pulled randomly off the net for Gaza smugglers collecting their goods from below.


Of course, someone always has to get cute and take things too far..lol. That pic of the actual car inside one comes from a BBC story of the smuggler tunnels.


Finally, the above is one of Israel's infographics of the smuggling under the Rafah crossing (Southern Gaza/Egypt border).

Imagine the sheer power of the Palestinian people with different leadership and constructive efforts, not destructive ones. I look at the tunnels and imagine the sheer work and manpower involved then wonder...how?? I then notice a 40+ % unemployment rate with a demographic of 18 as the average age of someone in Gaza right now and understand a bit more. They literally have nothing BETTER to do than to do things like this, as almost half their population have nowhere to go and nothing to do when they get there, on a daily basis.

Now if only they could be free to direct those incredible talents to positive things, not fighting an eternal war.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: logicguy69

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

There are no Israeli checkpoints inside Gaza. Check your facts.

Their country is bigger than Gaza. Check yourself.

Yet this thread is about the tunnels in Gaza.... These tunnels have absolutely nothing to do with bypassing checkpoints, there are no checkpoints anywhere near these tunnels - you're only fooling yourself with that one. Unless you mean the border between Gaza and Israel as a checkpoint, in which case Israel has every right to prevent them from entering Israel. These tunnels are for hiding/smuggling weapons and entering Israel to kidnap/kill Israelis, pure and simple.

Entering Israel is Palestinians right. It is their land. Tjose waving the star of David while they murder innocent children by the hundreds are military occupants and nothing they do is in defence since they are occupying by force. Give your head a shake. That is like saying the US was defending itself against the Vietnamese.

Except the Vietnamese weren't launching missiles at US civilians...

a reply to: pheonix358

Or maybe it explains everything?

Have you ever wondered how does Hamas survive year after year, despite *supposedly* only having the support of the people in Palestine? How come nobody asks why Hamas doesn't want a "two state" solution, why do they keep putting forward the path of conflict?

Israel is no saint, but they aren't the devil either...

If these tunnels do exist, and they do have the scale they seem to have, then Israel was right all along. The only way Hamas was capable of keeping it's offensive and still build these tunnels, would be with funding from somewhere else... And Iran fits like the final puzzle piece.

It would explain Iran's schizophrenic peace/war stance, it would explain their lack of activity and it would explain why it's so handy that a conflict in Gaza keeps going forward, gives them time to do whatever they are planning to do.

Not only that, but why do international organizations go bats# insane when Israel makes a move, even saying they are war criminals, but next door Syria just keeps actively murdering thousands of people and it's "just another day in Syria"? Everyone is crying and yelling that Israel is the evil of the World because 100, 200 children have died. Well, 200 girls were kidnapped from a school and nobody did sh# about it. Where are the badass special ops guys coming to the rescue? Where is the international rage over it? Twitter bs sentences isn't support, and it ain't saving those girls...

But Israel, oh no...! We can't let Israel do anything because we are Human, and we know humanitarian causes are important!

I don't get it, personally.

/rant

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: CommandoJoe

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: logicguy69

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Wow. So Israel feels threatened having to send large numbers of troops to defend engineers while they destroy a sovereign nations peoples only way to travel in their own country without crossing checkpoints enforced by a military occupation.

Poor Israel. The Palestinians just wont hand over the land to whatever you want to call them, no matter how many of their children get murdered in cold blood while the world stands by and tippy toes around it, making excuses for Israel because it is to harmful to any professional's career to criticize Israel, since you will be publicly smeared by the massive pro-Israel media machine.

Manipulation and extortion, or as the Israelis put it, "war by deception." Israel has no friends, at least for their part. They have nations they use, and nations they destroy, but not with force. From within. While you call them your friend.

There are no Israeli checkpoints inside Gaza. Check your facts.

Their country is bigger than Gaza. Check yourself.

Yet this thread is about the tunnels in Gaza.... These tunnels have absolutely nothing to do with bypassing checkpoints, there are no checkpoints anywhere near these tunnels - you're only fooling yourself with that one. Unless you mean the border between Gaza and Israel as a checkpoint, in which case Israel has every right to prevent them from entering Israel. These tunnels are for hiding/smuggling weapons and entering Israel to kidnap/kill Israelis, pure and simple.

Entering Israel is Palestinians right. It is their land. Tjose waving the star of David while they murder innocent children by the hundreds are military occupants and nothing they do is in defence since they are occupying by force. Give your head a shake. That is like saying the US was defending itself against the Vietnamese.

Except the Vietnamese weren't launching missiles at US civilians...

After the US invaded Vietnam, the Viet Cong were most certainly launching missiles, and using every means possible to expel the violent invaders who were murdering innocent civilians according to some psychopathic ideology which only held meaning to the invadering forces.

If US civilians had begun building homes over the demolished ruins of Vietnamese homes, those "civilians" would be as guilty as the military forces protecting them, and would therefore be legitimate targets. If you don't want to endanger civilians, then you shouldn't park them in a war zone that you started yourself. That's just crazypants.... But Israelis and their supporters don't seem to ever step back far enough to see the cold reality here. Opinions are irrelevant when you have the facts.

Perhaps you are confused as to the big picture here, or ignorant of the roots of this conflict which began legitimately in the late 19th century?

originally posted by: lostbook
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Great find, Wrabbit. The elaborate extensive ness of these tunnels makes me think of the tunnels under the US/ Mexico border. I wonder why hasn't Hamas used bombs in Israel if the tunnels extend into Israeli territory. Perhaps that is why Israel is so intent on destroying them.

They've infiltrated through them several times in the past month alone.

They came through one when Kerry was there, but got fought off.

IDF guards the exits to found tunnels in Israel, but bombing one end isn't enough.

Harte

originally posted by: buster2010
a reply to: criticalhit

The Israel haters will never own up to what this really is nor the fact that it leaves Israel completely justified.

Sorry but in no way is Israel justified in carpet bombing neighborhoods, schools or hospitals. Not to mention no real proof has been shown yet.

These tunnels are for genocide. This is to bring an A bomb or two into Israel or other WMD, the Israelis aren't wrong about what will happen when Iran gets nukes, this is obviously a Nation State sponsored system.

Not the A bomb nonsense again. If Hamas were to set on of those off it would be like setting it off in their own backyard. Also seeing how Iran isn't trying to build nukes Israel is wrong on that end too.

The stupidity of people... the Death toll in Gaza is 750 and people call it "Genocide" the Death toll in Detroit alone is currently 411... meanwhile Hamas is actually building and putting a system for "ACTUAL" genocide of the Jews in place.

What foreign nation is attacking Detroit? This system if it really exists could be a safe haven for the Palestinians from the NeoNazis running Israel.

I have been hesitant to take a side through this, but now my opinion has to go 100% Israel, these tunnels weren't being built to smuggle weed lol... they have every right to go in and stop this.

And Palestine seeing that it is occupied by a hostile nation has every right to use whatever means necessary to defend themselves from that nation.

Seriously, I don't know where the Palestinian support locus comes from on ats, or who anybody really is. I do know Islam is the number one demographic in the world in regards to supports attempting to use the Internet to sway opinion and that some westerners get swayed... but none of that makes an argument hold water

1: Carpet bombing? really, I hate to tell you there wouldn't be a person left alive in 90 minutes or so if the Israelis actually were "carpet bombing" Gaza. The strikes are pretty targeted, the Blatant use of civilian locations and other "highly sympathetic" locations to hide men and weapons is the middle name of Hamas and it's repulsive, everyone in the world knows what they do and that it's designed to gather sympathy at the expense of innocents even this thread is about tunnels under locations like Hospitals and UN buildings... come on

2: Not the A Bomb nonsense again? The entire history of wars lost is one of the enemy using tactics or attacking in ways "everybody" said they wouldn't.... i.e "why didn't you check inside that wooden horse"... would have been a lovely week without that Iron Dome too... Not eliminating tunnel systems under your cities would be retarded and a small A bomb UNDER Tel Aviv would be the PERFECT delivery system for use of such a weapon without collateral damage you could drop the whole city with little radiation spread, you must have missed all those underground tests in proximity to vegas we did back in the day/ IN FACT this would be just about THE ONLY way, you could destroy Tel Aviv w/o destroying Jerusalem Holy sites or killing many Palestinians...

3: No foreign nation is attacking Detroit and that is exactly my point, the Death toll is comparable to the urban strife in a US city, which amounts to people shooting at each other not "Genocide" or "Carpet Bombing"

4: I agree they do... but in fairness this is a "Dispute" I wont even make the claim as to who owns what because it's a bad argument, it's not a winnable debate, by either side if it was there wouldn't be "fighting" At this point and time today there are 2 sides, Yes they both want to win... both sides have the same right to defend themselves, regardless of what side you take the Israelis are THERE and not as an invading Army but in rather well built long enduring cities, your going on 3/4 of a century since Israel flew it's flag, There were large numbers of Jews there long prior to whatever government flew it's flag and all one needs to do is look at Tel Aviv in 1940 and today to see the substantial building that has gone on... Manhattan was a rip off for the natives, none the less Manhattan was not built by the natives... I could easily debate the Palestinians wanting some concessions and be on their side, that however doesn't discount what the Israelis did once they were there or make Tel Aviv "theirs"

If we choose to debate "History" for ownership no one anywhere would have a right to anything, at the moment it's Israels and every argument to women and children right of self defense applies to both sides... if you choose to be fair.

That being said, the Palestinian cause would be a lost one in a matter of days If Israel chose to put a real effort into seeing that be the case so maybe it's time for the Palestinians themselves to kick Hamas to the curb

Good questions. If the tunnel network with command center and weapons storage remains and is the Ultimate target, why is there so much focus on the above ground missile launchers near civilian housing and targeting of Palestinian home and civilians and the schools and hospitals?

a reply to: amazing

Psychological warfare.

Why do extremists do suicide bombings? Isn't a soldier life more valuable over the course of time and several operations, instead of sending into one mission and blowing him up? It's obvious that it is. But a suicide bombing has a psychological effect on the target. You don't know where, when and who is going to do it.

People have forgotten how constant bus bombings were in Israel not so long ago. It evolved into the rockets thing because:

a) Israel kicked their butt back.
b) Blowing up buses was making Israelis mad, which made them kick butt even harder.

Putting ammunition and weapons below children beds will make Israel bombs fall on them, killing innocent people and making them an aggressor.

Not only that, but you put doubt into their minds. "should we drop this bomb?". That's a small victory.

a reply to: criticalhit

Absolutely correct, they are not just to allow insertion into Israeli territory but to plant large underground explosive's or devices.
Here is an example of such from the first world war www.greatwar.co.uk...
This type of attack using subterranean explosives as well as being innacurate and indiscriminate is totally devastating and could also be used to allow subterranean sapper attacks on Israeli defencive fortification's as a prelude to a massed ground attack coupled with internal distraction attack's by guerilla squad's emerging inside Israel's protected boundary.
Israel has no choice in the matter and no matter what public opininon inside or outside Israel think's if they do not act then they are guilty of allowing the genocide of Israel so if I was in charge I would politely tell the world and it's media to go to hell and get on with the job in hand which is the destruction of the Tunnels and the eradication of Hammas.

What they have to watch for now though is similar attack tunnel's built on there other borders such as the Golan defences.

I thought Israel was a "democracy"? Why would the Palestinians need to use underground tunnels to travel? Maybe the EVIL IRANIANS built the tunnels so that Hamas can move nuclear weapons around(sarcasm)???? And how on earth could millions of tons of dirt be moved without the nosey Israelis seeing it? The Palestinians live under constant scrutiny by the Israelis so I just don't see how they could get away with an operation that big. Until I see proof of "miles of tunnels" I just don't believe it. This is Israels way of extending their slaughter, IMO.

Do you know how satellites can make 3D maps of underground from space?

They should use those satellites on Gaza so they have evidence of these tunnels and bunkers, I just don't think they exist to be honest. Not on the scale that is being printed.

The amount of dirt excavated would need to go somewhere right?

We have detailed maps, advanced satellites and probably apps for our smart phones that can accurately pin point how high we are from sea level from any given place... We could use such things to find all this missing earth. Just a thought, after all evidence is everything.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Tunneling and excavating is a highly outdated tactic in warfare, the weapons you could use underground would be much more effective above ground.

at a guess I can imagine tunneling under your enemy to plant explosives and tear their very world around them down has been an act of desperation since at least the 1500's, the invention of the cannon negated such mundane versions of taking an enemies stronghold.

I bet you that you'd struggle to find more than 40 cases of mining being used as an offensive tactic in the last 400 years, I also bet that any cases you do find the use of mining was a decision out of necessity and disparity. If these tunnels exist on the scale being mentioned that alone should say a lot.

originally posted by: pheonix358
What else do you do when your opponent dwarfs you in military might.

Tunnels work! Vietnam proved that.

Now we can see where humanitarian aid is going unless some outside agency is paying for all of this and someone likely is. It just means that Hamas is getting smarter.

It begs the question though. If Hamas has all of these tunnels, then why are they still storing rockets in schools. There would be no need.

Do we have any proof that these tunnels exist or is this just a make believe scenario by Israel to pander to public opinion.

If the tunnels do exist then why is Israel bombing schools?

This raises more questions than answers and does not make any sense at all.

Perhaps that is why it is a give away paragraph at the end, sort of testing the waters of public opinion to see if it floats.

Where is reality.

P

a reply to: Fylgje

And how on earth could millions of tons of dirt be moved without the nosey Israelis seeing it?

Folks keep asking that but somehow, they've been moving dirt for new tunnels for many many years.

Gaza Tunnels

Many of those pics are from the Palestinians themselves and those have moved many thousands of cubic yards of dirt too. The Gaza Strip has a pretty fair mix of open and built up area, with access to move around up to what looks to be a 1km buffer zone on their entire border. That's a whole different issue....but getting rid of dirt in a nation of rubble piles and new rubble being made by new fighting every few years, hardly seems a challenge.

LIDAR is capable of measurement close enough to tell those things, but then...what is it really telling? This or that area of dirt is a few inches higher than it was before? That would be a great deal of resource use for arguable results in anything useful, IMO. Then you have a % of Gaza which is agriculture (when Israel isn't running it into the sand with tanks and bulldozers) that would be near impossible to try and track in that way..should anyone bother to try.

I'm thinking Israel may very well become very intense and serious about seismic surveys and drilling on their side of the border for quite some time though. The underground tunnel barrier built at the Rafah crossing area is pretty impressive for what it is and how it's designed. Maybe we'll see a new wall around Gaza, running down instead of up.