J. White calculates why Apollo craft could not have survived passage through the VABs

originally posted by: FoosM
OK, one thing we need to clear up, and can clear up, on both sides of the debate is whether or not Apollo
astronauts flew through the harshest regions of the belt.

Who here still thinks Apollo managed to skip these regions? Whats your proof?

Who here thinks Apollo went through these regions? Whats your proof?

FoosM.

Listen.

It is not a case of who "thinks" what. The trajectory of every single Apollo mission was plotted and is known extremely accurately. There is no room for conjecture as far as the course goes. OK?

history.nasa.gov...

originally posted by: FoosM

“In deep space the challenges are zero gravity and a radiation environment. So bone loss, muscle loss and the radiation as you don’t have the atmosphere of the Earth to protect you,” said Laurence Price Deputy Program Manager at Lockheed Martin.

Price is talking about the Van Allen Belt, a tightly packed field of radiation around the earth that acts as a layer that protects earth from charged ions.

www.engineering.com... nts.aspx

Unfortunately, the author of that piece is very confused.

Price specifically said "deep space", so how could he have been talking about the Van Allen Belts? By definition they are not in deep space, i.e. beyond the gravitational influence of the Earth!

If you study the photo of the poster on that piece you will see that it is referring to gamma radiation plus neutrons and other charged particles, i.e. cosmic rays, which are found BEYOND the Van Allen belts, in deep space.


This has been explained to you several hundred times, Foos.

The reason PROLONGED DEEP SPACE exploration requires these new shielding technologies is NOTHING to do with the Van Allen belts.

NOTHING.

NOT ONE LITTLE BIT.

OK?

We could get through them in the 1960s and we could get through them today in exactly the same manner.

It takes a matter of a couple of hours to cross the belts, so why on Earth would the duration of the mission AFTER THAT matter if the problem was in the Van Allen belts?

Once you have crossed them it doesn't matter if you go to the moon for a couple of days or Saturn for 10 years or Alpha Centauri for a couple of centuries - you are not going to get any more radiation from the belts BECAUSE YOU HAVE LEFT THEM FAR BEHIND within a few tens of thousands of miles of Earth!

Understand?

The danger in PROLONGED DEEP SPACE missions comes mainly from galactic cosmic rays. THEY are the things that are difficult to shield against, right? And if you spend more than a few months in deep space with current shielding technologies then you will risk radiation sickness.

That is as clear as I can make it. Surely you understand this? It's like crossing a busy road. Once you've crossed it, you can walk as far as you like across the fields and you don't have to worry about cars. Of course, there may be other dangers in the field, like lions, so you will need to take different precautions.

We know how to cross the road already. We just need to work on our lion repellent.


One final attempt to make you understand. Here I have taken a drawing of the Earth and Moon to scale and overlaid the Van Allen belts on it at the same scale. See how small they are?



Now imagine how much further away Mars is. Nearly 600 times further than the moon, on average. The Earth and Moon appear about 4 inches apart on my screen, so at the same scale, Mars would be almost 200 feet away. Do you really think the Van Allen belts are relevant when it comes to flying all the way to Mars?

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM
OK, one thing we need to clear up, and can clear up, on both sides of the debate is whether or not Apollo
astronauts flew through the harshest regions of the belt.

Who here still thinks Apollo managed to skip these regions? Whats your proof?

Who here thinks Apollo went through these regions? Whats your proof?

FoosM.

Listen.

It is not a case of who "thinks" what. The trajectory of every single Apollo mission was plotted and is known extremely accurately. There is no room for conjecture as far as the course goes. OK?

history.nasa.gov...

So Rob48, I take it you are on the side that none of the Apollo missions when through the
heart or harshest regions of the belt? You agree with Braunig, etc.

But do you also believe that Gemini flew into the VABs as Phil P stated?

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM
OK, one thing we need to clear up, and can clear up, on both sides of the debate is whether or not Apollo
astronauts flew through the harshest regions of the belt.

Who here still thinks Apollo managed to skip these regions? Whats your proof?

Who here thinks Apollo went through these regions? Whats your proof?

FoosM.

Listen.

It is not a case of who "thinks" what. The trajectory of every single Apollo mission was plotted and is known extremely accurately. There is no room for conjecture as far as the course goes. OK?

history.nasa.gov...

So Rob48, I take it you are on the side that none of the Apollo missions when through the
heart or harshest regions of the belt? You agree with Braunig, etc.

But do you also believe that Gemini flew into the VABs as Phil P stated?

The maximum altitude of any Gemini flights was about 850 miles. They flew into the lower parts of the inner belt, yes, what is your point?

Gemini 11 was the highest of these, but its orbit was planned to avoid the South Atlantic Anomaly:



So in fact the largest radiation dose of any Gemini mission was on Gemini 10, even though it was at a lower altitude, because that mission did, quite deliberately, pass through the lower part of the SAA.

These are the radiation doses for the Gemini missions:



For comparison, the equivalent total on Apollo 11 was 173 millirads: about four times lower than that encountered on Gemini 10.

Those still pale into insignificance compared to the much longer Skylab missions, which gave doses as high as 2,500 millirad.

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: FoosM
OK, one thing we need to clear up, and can clear up, on both sides of the debate is whether or not Apollo
astronauts flew through the harshest regions of the belt.

Who here still thinks Apollo managed to skip these regions? Whats your proof?

Who here thinks Apollo went through these regions? Whats your proof?

FoosM.

Listen.

It is not a case of who "thinks" what. The trajectory of every single Apollo mission was plotted and is known extremely accurately. There is no room for conjecture as far as the course goes. OK?

history.nasa.gov...

So Rob48, I take it you are on the side that none of the Apollo missions when through the
heart or harshest regions of the belt? You agree with Braunig, etc.

But do you also believe that Gemini flew into the VABs as Phil P stated?

The maximum altitude of any Gemini flights was about 850 miles. They flew into the lower parts of the inner belt, yes, what is your point?

Thats not what I asked, I asked did they fly into the heart of the Belt as Phil stated.
I guess based on the info below, you are showing Phil was wrong. Is this true?
And Im still waiting for you to be clear where you stand on Apollo's trajectories.

originally posted by: Rob48
Gemini 11 was the highest of these, but its orbit was planned to avoid the South Atlantic Anomaly:

So in fact the largest radiation dose of any Gemini mission was on Gemini 10, even though it was at a lower altitude, because that mission did, quite deliberately, pass through the lower part of the SAA.

These are the radiation doses for the Gemini missions:

For comparison, the equivalent total on Apollo 11 was 173 millirads: about four times lower than that encountered on Gemini 10.

Those still pale into insignificance compared to the much longer Skylab missions, which gave doses as high as 2,500 millirad.

So what you are showing is that Apollo 11, that had to fly through the belts, through "deep space" to land on the moon, ended up with less radiation exposure than a craft that momentarily touched the edge of the VABs.
How does your VAB math explain that. No matter what, Apollo stayed longer in the VAB regions. What changed?

a reply to: FoosM

Because, as has been explained to you so many times that I've lost count, time plays a huge factor in the exposure amount. If you stay longer in the VAB, you get more exposure. Go figure.

a reply to: FoosM

1) "Deep Space" is out of the gravitational influence of the Earth. That is just past 1.5 MILLION miles. Space between the Earth and the moon, and for another 1.25 million miles after the moon is NOT "Deep Space" (get your facts right).

2) As I, Rob, Zaphod and several others on here have pointed out over and over and over (but which you refuse to acknowledge or address, which is very, very telling on your part) the Apollo missions spent very little time in the VABs. Rob even showed you with this picture below which is a great example:



Again: Dosage is,

Distance (how far from the source)

Shielding (which can be anything from clothing, metal and even air has a shielding effect depending upon the source)

AMOUNT OF TIME OF EXPOSURE

All three have to be considered.

originally posted by: FoosM

So what you are showing is that Apollo 11, that had to fly through the belts, through "deep space" to land on the moon, ended up with less radiation exposure than a craft that momentarily touched the edge of the VABs.
How does your VAB math explain that. No matter what, Apollo stayed longer in the VAB regions. What changed?

You are ALMOST getting it, Foos! Except that Apollo didn't spend more time in the VAB region: it spent LESS!

Gemini missions went ROUND AND ROUND the whole time, repeatedly passing in and out of the Van Allen belts the whole time. Gemini 10 orbited 44 times!

Apollo went THROUGH the belts ONCE and then out into DEEP SPACE where there is less radiation.

Are you starting to see yet? Or shall I do another picture?

Here you go: it's extremely rough and ready but hopefully the point is clear. On the left, Gemini, going round and round and round (at the scale of this drawing it is hard to show, but it is only skimming the lower part of the belts in reality). On the right, Apollo, which did about one and a half Earth orbits and then shot off towards the moon.



Now do you see why Gemini encountered MORE radiation than Apollo?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

Because, as has been explained to you so many times that I've lost count, time plays a huge factor in the exposure amount. If you stay longer in the VAB, you get more exposure. Go figure.

Oh, so you are saying that Apollo 11 stayed less time going through the entirety of the belts than Gemini did going
passed as small area of one of the belts?

a reply to: FoosM

Yes. Gemini orbited repeatedly, so it went through that "small part of the belt" many times. Gemini 12 was up there almost three days going through the VAB over and over again. It takes between an hour and a half, and just over two hours to make one orbit in LEO. That means that every two hours or so they were going through the belts. That means that they went through them something like up to 40 times while in orbit. That means they spent a LOT more time in them than Apollo ever did.

originally posted by: Rob48


Now do you see why Gemini encountered MORE radiation than Apollo?

Did you answer any of my questions Rob?
Cause it sounds like you are stalling.

a reply to: FoosM

Honestly, it is the VAB that keeps me questioning the authenticity of the moon landing. I've read a few articles about either the shuttle itself would be ill-equipped to deal with the radiation to a program dissecting the space suits and showing how they too were inadequate in protecting the astronauts from radiation.

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Because the shuttle was designed for operation below the belts, or in the very lowest bands of the belts. It wasn't designed to go into the heart of them, so it wouldn't have handled them.

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

Because, as has been explained to you so many times that I've lost count, time plays a huge factor in the exposure amount. If you stay longer in the VAB, you get more exposure. Go figure.

Oh, so you are saying that Apollo 11 stayed less time going through the entirety of the belts than Gemini did going
passed as small area of one of the belts?

Yes, because Gemini entered the VABs many times because it was orbiting the Earth and it's path took it through the VABs over and over, where as the Apollo missions entered and exited twice each mission only.

Again, you are demonstrating that you do not understand how radiation exposure works. It's cumulative over a period of time.

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48


Now do you see why Gemini encountered MORE radiation than Apollo?

Did you answer any of my questions Rob?
Cause it sounds like you are stalling.

Yes. Yes I did. I even drew you a diagram.

Gemini 10 passed through the belts repeatedly. More than FORTY TIMES.

Apollo passed through the belts TWICE - once on the way to the moon and once on the way back. Maybe 3-4 hours to cross it each way even if you count the very outermost reaches.

Apollo spent less than EIGHT hours in the belts in total.

Gemini 10 spent about 30 minutes per orbit in the belts. For 44 orbits.

30 minutes x 44 orbits = 22 HOURS in the belts!

22 HOURS of exposure is more than 8 HOURS of exposure.

Please tell me you can understand this basic concept?

Here's that diagram again, in case you don't get it:



However, Gemini 11 DIDN'T go through the SAA, and as you can see from the table, the radiation level was far less than even Apollo 11 (which measured 173 millirad).



It's really quite straightforward, Foos. The missions that spent LONGER in the belts encountered MORE radiation in total.

It's almost... what's the word...?

OBVIOUS!

originally posted by: MonkeyFishFrog
a reply to: FoosM

Honestly, it is the VAB that keeps me questioning the authenticity of the moon landing. I've read a few articles about either the shuttle itself would be ill-equipped to deal with the radiation to a program dissecting the space suits and showing how they too were inadequate in protecting the astronauts from radiation.

You realise that the astronauts weren't outside in their space suits in the Van Allen belts? The level of radiation on the moon, where they were outside (and in cis-lunar space on the way to the moon, for that matter) is vastly lower than it is in the VAB.

The Van Allen belts are not a problem if you are crossing them on the way to somewhere else, like the moon, or Mars.

They ARE a problem if you want to keep orbiting round and round within them, because the dose will soon add up. That's why Gemini 10 encountered four times MORE radiation than Apollo 11 even though the Gemini mission lasted less than three days, compared to eight days for Apollo. Gemini was constantly orbiting the Earth for that time, whereas Apollo was BEYOND the VAB for most of those eight days.

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Rob48


Now do you see why Gemini encountered MORE radiation than Apollo?

Did you answer any of my questions Rob?
Cause it sounds like you are stalling.

FoosM these things have been explained MANY MANY times on MANY MANY threads you query everything anyone presents as information against the blunder from down under, yet you seem to except everything he claims even when people like Rob show his errors NOW this is either you being deliberately deceitful or you are the most stupid person on the planet so which is it.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Because the shuttle was designed for operation below the belts, or in the very lowest bands of the belts. It wasn't designed to go into the heart of them, so it wouldn't have handled them.

the Shuttle had a higher shielding rating than Apollo, explain then how it couldn't handle the belts?

originally posted by: eriktheawful

originally posted by: FoosM

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FoosM

Because, as has been explained to you so many times that I've lost count, time plays a huge factor in the exposure amount. If you stay longer in the VAB, you get more exposure. Go figure.

Oh, so you are saying that Apollo 11 stayed less time going through the entirety of the belts than Gemini did going
passed as small area of one of the belts?

Yes, because Gemini entered the VABs many times because it was orbiting the Earth and it's path took it through the VABs over and over, where as the Apollo missions entered and exited twice each mission only.
.

Ok, then just show the proof.
How many times and how long vs Apollo?

By the way, all you people saying that Apollo spent less time in the belts than Gemini
please inform us how fast Apollo was going on its return trip to Earth, vs its trip going to the moon.
Was the speed the same?