Who wrote the Torah?

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: KidOK
What is your reason for assuming that God can't work through anonymous people, just as easily as through named people?

If god was working through the four authors of the gospels, then I would have to believe they could get on same page as far as their stories.

originally posted by: St Udio

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: St Udio

You seem hostile to Kabbalah? Is it because you are an "apocalypse Sufi" (as your mood reads)? As far as I'm concerned the Muslim Sufis and the Jewish Kabbalists deals with much the same material. The eternal mantra "As above-- So below".

which itself distills/boils down to the real source -> Shamanism

that is the meaning/essence of Sufi

Shamanism? How on Earth did you make that connection? As far as I'm concerned shamanism involves chanting and drumming on hallucinogens mostly, while Sufiism and Kabbalism are concerned with the scientific study and analysis of the universe and the human experience as divine, as well as expressing themselves through physics and mathmatics. Please elaborate and also explain what you mean by shamanism. I fail to see a connection.

a reply to: KidOK
Perhaps perfect agreement on every detail was not part of what he wanted to achieve.
Perhaps he was content to let each work in their own way towards the end-result that he intended.

I don't believe it was ever claimed that the bible or Torah had only one author. a reply to: CB328

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: KidOK
Perhaps perfect agreement on every detail was not part of what he wanted to achieve.
Perhaps he was content to let each work in their own way towards the end-result that he intended.

Then he should have told the church to not teach inerrancy.

He should have also thrown us a bone for some archeological or extra biblical evidence of major biblical characters (not kings or places; apostles, paul, joseph, mary, the exodus, moses, etc).

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Wellhausen hypothesis (DH) ==> en.wikipedia.org...

Both Wellhausen AND wikipedia are clearly unreliable sources...

Both have been proven 100% wrong.

Numerous archaeological discoveries of the past 100 years have proved once and for all that the art of writing was not only known during Moses’ day, but also long before Moses came on the scene. Although skeptics, liberal theologians, and college professors will continue to perpetuate the Documentary Hypothesis, they must be informed (or reminded) of the fact that one of the foundational assumptions upon which the theory rests has been shattered by archeological evidence. MOSES AND THE ART OF WRITING

One major problem with the Documentary Hypothesis is that we now know Moses did not live “prior to all knowledge of writing.” In fact, he lived long after the art of writing was already known. A veritable plethora of archaeological discoveries has proven one of the earliest assumptions of the Wellhausen theory to be wrong.
www.apologeticspress.org...

a reply to: St Udio

You seem hostile to Kabbalah? Is it because you are an "apocalypse Sufi" (as your mood reads)? As far as I'm concerned the Muslim Sufis and the Jewish Kabbalists deals with much the same material. The eternal mantra "As above-- So below"


Shamanism? How on Earth did you make that connection? As far as I'm concerned shamanism mostly involves chanting and drumming on hallucinogens mostly, while Sufiism and Kabbalism are concerned with the scientific study and analysis of the universe and the human experience as divine, as well as expressing themselves through physics and mathmatics. Please elaborate and also explain what you mean by shamanism. I fail to see a connection.





it seems you are not seeing the world through the same lens I am...
your concept of Shamanism & Sufi (which are both incompatible with Kabbalah) is of the sanitized...MSM... description, concept of attaining a higher awareness state of being...

the 'as above so below' applies to Shamanism, perhaps- in all likelihood- to Sufi... but not Kabbalist in the same sense: SEE:: gnosticteachings.org...
... they only regard ' Sacred Geometry' in the context of 'As Above so Below', not worldviews or life epiphanies as do Shaman or Sufi practitioners



the Sufi & Shaman gain access to the next reality through exertions on the physical body

whereas the Kabbalist gains their transcendental states through the deep introspection/delvings into the mind...in a sense the Kabbalists became 'possessed'

does that not sit well with your worldview ?

a reply to: KidOK
No doubt he will seek your advice next time, to be sure of getting it right.

originally posted by: KidOK
Then he should have told the church to not teach inerrancy. He should have also thrown us a bone for some archeological or extra biblical evidence of major biblical characters.

What makes you believe He DIDN'T?

Stop believing what mainstream religion and the Smithsonian are telling you...

They have BOTH been been taken over just like everything else has.

Stop blaming God for lies perpetrated by men.

He warned us FAR in advance: "all men are liars."

...the goal is to infiltrate it with their compromising philosophies and attempt to destroy the Church from within."

"What if there were people within the various Churches of God who covertly were guiding the members to slowly accept new ideas which are alien to the true faith and who were dedicated to destroying that faith at all costs?" JESUIT-JEDI MINDTRICKS

In the late forties the Illuminati wanted to infiltrate the churches because they understood the power of God within the structure of the church, and they had to find a way to infiltrate the church to break down that spiritual strength within the church, the power of the holy spirit that works within the church. They had to find a way to infiltrate that, and they wanted to bring the world into the churches so that the churches wouldn't be so strong spiritually. That was part of my father's job.

The method the illuminati used to infiltrate the organized church

"...authorities ordered the skeleton and all the artifacts secretly reburied- and, of course, lost to the scientific study they deserved.” Source

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

"Throughout recorded history, the Illuminati has successfully withheld from humankind major aspects of history and science in order to subjugate the masses"

By manipulating the souls evolving on earth, the Illuminati have deliberately suppressed the spiritual facts of life, not to mention liberating technologies, which could bring plenitude to all.

Secrets of Suppressed Science and History

"The model of human prehistory built-up by scholars over the past two centuries is sadly and completely wrong, and a deliberate tool of disinformation and mind control. ...they demonstrate a systematic destruction of proofs that show another reality than that the official story. Falsifications and even destruction of such proofs has been common for more than two hundred years." LINK

"...the Illuminati eventually controlled the science departments in all colleges and institutions of higher learning. The plan was to stifle scientific knowledge and then twist what was left to fit the science they wanted the people to believe. They accomplished this by adopting new rules in regards to scientific research.

Secret Societies - Who Controls Knowledge?

a reply to: Murgatroid

Wellhausen may have said at some point that Moses lived before the Hebrew alefbet was invented, which has been found to be false, but this doesn't tip the scale much as for the hypothesis carrying his name. Like the authors of the Torah, Wellhausen coundn't be 100% right about everything he ever said or wrote.

It may have been possible to write the Torah at the time of Moses and even earlier, but evidently, it wasn't. Infact, the earliest complete Torah is a Greek translation from the fourth century AD, included in the LXX Septuagint manuscript named 'Codex Sinaiticus'. The oldest complete Torah in Hebrew is from the 12th century AD, merely 800 years old.

We are not arguing the dating of the invention of writing here, but the fact that the Torah was written over the coarse of several hundred years by a wide array of authors. I also included a book there if all this modern technology and free available knowledge 'gets to you'. That book was the reason I wrote this article and only refer to Wikipedia for the quotes I gave, which are quite accurate when comparing it to other research made into the field.

Seeing your skepticism for using Wikipedia and Wellhausen as sources, what about the Bible then? Is that a reliable source? And if so, why?

If it had been written all by one person, and therefore all in one era, that person might come to be diefied by some. So I can see why it was done this way. Perhaps it was meant to be, or is better, that we do not know the names of the actual scribes. Or maybe they didn't want to be known, preferring to give the glory to God.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Oh dear, a dragon AND a river, now that's interesting. Keep it coming, the Earth dries up in this Heat....

originally posted by: 3n19m470
If it had been written all by one person, and therefore all in one era, that person might come to be diefied by some.

Yes, and he must have lived for quite some time without ever being noticed by anyone. Quite spectacular to be the author of the Holy Bible and never minding the nearly 4000 years it has taken to get this far. Guess he could have made a few pounds of gold on royalties alone... Who is this guy who keeps running around writing the inerroneous word of the ineffable omnipresent God? I would like to have a few words with him.

malarchy.

just like god popped all the various animals and plants into existence, so did the torah.

also, since the bible is inerrant and infallible, there can only be one true translation, and thats the kjv.

all those other books are just plants by satan, just like fossils, to fool us into thinking that the inerrant word of god could have changes and is actually fallible.

nonsense.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

TextAccording to “the documentary hypothesis” (DH) or “the Wellhausen hypothesis”, the current paradigm of centuries of textual criticism and other linguistic analysis, says that the Torah is the product of - or a patchwork made from - four main, separate and distinctive sources; The Javist Source, The Eloist Source, The Deuteromist Source, and The Priestly Source. The Javist and the Eloist texts are attributed to two single and separate authors, representative for the kingdoms of Judah and Israel respectively, while the latter two were written and designed in quorum by many authors:

For those of you who do not know the entirety of the thread and that do not have the latest information concerning this Julius Wellhausen here are some internet informants for you to read.

THE TORAH IN MODERN SCHOLARSHIP
By Kenneth W. Collins

HISTORICAL CRITICISM OF THE BIBLE - METHODOLOGY OR IDEOLOGY?

THE DOCUMENTARY HYPOTHESIS
By Mark A. McNeil

DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM AND THE OLD TESTAMENT
By Wayne Jackson M.A.

ARE THERE TWO CREATION ACCOUNTS IN GENESIS?
By Wayne Jackson M.A.

ESSAYS ON JEDP

A BRIEF NOTE ABOUT THE DOCUMENTARY HYPOTHESIS

DID MOSES WRITE THE PENTATEUCH?
By Don Closson

THE GENUINENESS OF GENESIS (PDF)
By Timothy Lin Ph.D.
(PLEASE NOTE: This is a PDF file which has to be downloaded).

I believe that from some of this you will see the fraud of this hypothesis and realize that this is not hypothesis but theory at the best. You should realize that not one shred of evidence has ever been presented as to Wellhausen's imaginary hypothesis. We have always suspected that Moses did have other literature that he gathered to make his Genesis. Tradition tells us that the Torah was comprised during the last year of Moses' life. That is at 120 years old. It is reasonable to believe that he had help in gathering the data from the twelve tribes of their traditions and compiling the work into what is known as Genesis. There is nothing new in this article other than to lead you to believe that Torah was not compiled as one Torah but that Torah was created in an evolutionary style. The purpose of this? To cause doubt and criticism.

Who couldn't have wrote the torah, who was on first base at the time.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the bible - the laws. Don't do this and that, don't eat this and that............. The Bible, Quran and Torah all have Abraham as root. Its all the same to me.

I wrote Leviticus when I was in prison. I was bored, the manuscript was one of the worst things I have written and it only got published because it was in a collection of short stories written by Israelite prisoners held captive by Pharaoh.

The book was a best seller, even still today. Its amazing how people will read any old crap if there is a marketing gimmick to it.

a reply to: Seede

Wellhausen is not the only one who has proposed or embraced the idea that the Torah was written by others than Moses. How do you explain how most of Leviticus is written in a completely different dialect and type of language as most of Exodus, which is one of the most fragmented books in the Pentateuch? Did Moses suddeny change his attitude towards his language and used 200 years to perfect a new language and dialect and write the sequel to Exodus? To claim Moses wrote the Torah may ring a bell with people who also claim the Earth is 6000 years old and think modern science is the work of Satan. But unless you are plain ignorant it's easy to see the Torah and the Bible is a synoptic patchwork of a handful different sources and different traditions. How do you explain how Moses is always referred to in third person? Isn't that a bit odd if he wrote it?

You forget that the Torah was the holy book of many different sects and environments within Judaism, and everyone wanted to have their part of it. Clearest is the distinction between Elohim (God) and Jahveh (LORD). Both have their own separate creation story, and after a while they seem to melt together to form Jahveh Elohim or LORD God. But reading books like 'The early history of God' by Mark S. Smith you soon understand that there were plenty more gods around than Jahveh and Elohim, and you get to realise that Jahveh was the God of the kingdom of Judah while Elohim was the Pantheon of the kingdom of Israel. And it is all reflected throughout the Tannakh.

a reply to: St Udio

Can you please don't mess with the tags and syntax in your posts. It is impossible to discern what you quote from others, what you quote from external sources and what is your own words. Are you trying to make a subtle point here, or are you trying to fool us? In the post this one here is a reply to, you claim to quote Wikipedia, but the syntax and grammar of your "quotes" are all messed up and looks like some kind of Nokian dialect, so I guess it's all you, isn't it? You didn't really quote anything, did you?