A question from a Christian

I suppose I should define what I mean when I say evolution in the post. When I use the word evolution it will be referring only to Macro-evolution as I believe that Micro-evolution is an established fact, however as for things like Apes to Humans, or single cell to multi-cell or even Abiogenesis. These things are vital to an atheistic or even agnostic world view, yet they are something every scientist and person take on faith. There are no hard evidences for these things as far as I am concerned. If you are going to try and show me evidence please show me evidence for Macro and not Micro. Like I said I believe micro-evolution occurs.


My main question is can anyone give me a genetic pathway through which an Ape can evolve into a human, or a genetic pathway for the mesonychid to evolve into a whale?

I believe through all the experiments people have done on evolution all have shown two things: Variance and species limitations. What limits a species? The information present in its DNA is all natural selection has to select from. This information is not unlimited. Nor is there any evidence that partially evolved features will be selected, seeing as how partially evolved features would be undesirable until completely evolved which would take far to long and the soon to be desired trait would never make it. Species are limited by their genetic information, the probability of beneficial mutations and their ability to sustain themselves in a population, as well as natural selection as it works against a mutation until it the organ or limb it completely evolved.

Anyways just my little rant. Hope someone can answer my question.

(A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
(B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My
(C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My
(D) Homo habilis, KNM-ER 1813, 1.9 My
(E) Homo habilis, OH24, 1.8 My
(F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My
(G) Homo erectus, Dmanisi cranium D2700, 1.75 My
(H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), KNM-ER 3733, 1.75 My
(I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 y
(J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
(K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
(L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
(M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
(N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern

From talkorigins.com.

Not definitive, but somewhat concise...

I can not speak of the genetic changes that occured to cause the morphological changes.

Something structures life. If you examine the complexity of our bodies and all other life on earth, you find connections that must have something binding them together. It is a frequency, an instruction, a set of words. The bible is not wrong, but people must not have comprehended what was told to them from the one who structures everything. It is like the signal that goes through your mind, not the organics of the cells. It is the link with the energy of life that makes us what we are. Some refer to this entity as god. A collective consciousness beyond our comprehension.

But it is simpler just to call this entity god.

Here is the chromosomal mutation that I believe made the difference from chimp ancestor to man, hence we have one less chromosome than the chimps...

So, the evolutionary community claimed there was a telomere sequence right smack dab in the middle of the human chromosome 2, right exactly where evolution predicted if the two ape chromosomes (named 2A and 2B) had fused.

SomeBoringBlog

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You have already answered your own question. Of the 6 types of evolution, and they are: Cosmic, Stellar and Planetary, Chemical, Organic, Macro, and finally Micro, only Micro Evolution can be, and has been, observed using the scientific method. The other 5 categories of evolution are not observable, nor have they EVER been observed, nor can the scientific method, in totality, be applied to them. If the scientific method cannot be applied then it isn't science. There are certainly theories, for example, the big bang in regards to Cosmic Evolution, however there have never been any observations of the other 5. A theory is not a fact, and even though most theories are formed by using gathered evidence, that evidence is often very subjective and often a bias is applied when intellectualizing the evidence because of a predetermined belief by the "scientist". To conclude, regardless of what the atheist/agnostic says, it takes just as much faith for them to believe in the theory of evolution as it does for me to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ, and there is actually much more historical evidence that Jesus existed than there is for the other 5 categories of evolution. Let the trolling, insults, and unsubstantiated regurgitation of standard anti-creationist talking points begin!

1 Timothy 6:20-21

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Scientific method can make predictions which later paleontological finds can confirm. Not faith like religion, science keeps testing and questioning itself.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

They have all been observed except the forming of life it's self.


The small changes with evolution that add up to big changes are still an advantage. Like with a birds beak. A little longer beak helps them reach inside holes... But a way longer beak helps even more.


Look up the stats. Quite literally only Bible Belt Evangelical .americans deny evolution

a reply to: Elton

You posted a copy of the fossil record which proves only that primates have similarly shaped skulls, which could be evidence for a common designer just as much as it could be evidence for a common ancestor.

I dont think its honest to say that those changes occurred without first proving that they are genetically possible.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Well you are setting some very specific conditions for this discussion.

If you are looking for a research geneticist, you are probably on the wrong discussion forum.

If you were simply trying to get S&F from creationists I will defer from this discussion and let you collect them...

Cheers,
Elton

originally posted by: Elton
Here is the chromosomal mutation that I believe made the difference from chimp ancestor to man, hence we have one less chromosome than the chimps...

So, the evolutionary community claimed there was a telomere sequence right smack dab in the middle of the human chromosome 2, right exactly where evolution predicted if the two ape chromosomes (named 2A and 2B) had fused.

SomeBoringBlog

Well there are some major problems here. You are saying that there was a common ancestor and ancestor had a kid with two fused chromosomes(the human), but the same species(not necessarily the same organism) also gave rise to a new species with 48 (the chimp). Now my first question is what did the first animal with 46 chromosomes mate with? Did the mutation occur more than once in such a short time period as to allow it to mate? Thats improbable. So there are some major problems with that theory. Its definitely improbable enough for one to say you have to take it on faith that it occurred.

originally posted by: Elton
a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Scientific method can make predictions which later paleontological finds can confirm. Not faith like religion, science keeps testing and questioning itself.

Sure, the scientific method can certainly be applied in that way, and it should be because that is the most intellectually honest way to apply it when there is evidence lacking. Before a theory can be substantiated or proven, all evidence must be carefully examined in an objective manner. Having said that, when it comes to evolution, it is taught as if it is all scientific fact, when the truth is that it isn't. Science does indeed test and question itself, as it should, but evolution is treated as if it has passed all of the tests, and as if all of the questions have been adequately answered. We have seen this same story play out in regards to climate change, or global warming, or whatever they are calling it these days. Man made global warming was presented as fact, as if it was "case closed". What did Al Gore say..."The science is settled" Not even close. When there is an agenda behind science, it stops being science.

originally posted by: Elton
a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Scientific method can make predictions which later paleontological finds can confirm. Not faith like religion, science keeps testing and questioning itself.

As does Religion my friend. I do not always disagree with Science. I do not argue against evolution because of my religious views, but simply because I do not believe it happens. What predictions has it made that are very convincing to you?

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
I suppose I should define what I mean when I say evolution in the post. When I use the word evolution it will be referring only to Macro-evolution as I believe that Micro-evolution is an established fact, however as for things like Apes to Humans, or single cell to multi-cell or even Abiogenesis. These things are vital to an atheistic or even agnostic world view, yet they are something every scientist and person take on faith. There are no hard evidences for these things as far as I am concerned. If you are going to try and show me evidence please show me evidence for Macro and not Micro. Like I said I believe micro-evolution occurs.


My main question is can anyone give me a genetic pathway through which an Ape can evolve into a human, or a genetic pathway for the mesonychid to evolve into a whale?

I believe through all the experiments people have done on evolution all have shown two things: Variance and species limitations. What limits a species? The information present in its DNA is all natural selection has to select from. This information is not unlimited. Nor is there any evidence that partially evolved features will be selected, seeing as how partially evolved features would be undesirable until completely evolved which would take far to long and the soon to be desired trait would never make it. Species are limited by their genetic information, the probability of beneficial mutations and their ability to sustain themselves in a population, as well as natural selection as it works against a mutation until it the organ or limb it completely evolved.

Anyways just my little rant. Hope someone can answer my question.

Yes... We were and still are being altered by being that are not like us and we are also evolving on our own.
Angels are alien to us and are able to do things that most people would not believe or even understand.
That was easy...

originally posted by: ArtemisE
a reply to: OptimusSubprime

They have all been observed except the forming of life it's self.


The small changes with evolution that add up to big changes are still an advantage. Like with a birds beak. A little longer beak helps them reach inside holes... But a way longer beak helps even more.


Look up the stats. Quite literally only Bible Belt Evangelical .americans deny evolution

They have all been observed?! When has a species ever been observed evolving into another species (macro evolution) ? The answer is never. The birds beak example is micro evolution, which has already been discussed by myself and the OP as having been observed. In fact, the birds beak example is the very one that Darwin himself observed.

In regards to Chemical evolution, when has the origin of higher elements evolving from hydrogen ever been observed? The answer is once again, never.

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Of the 6 types of evolution, and they are: Cosmic, Stellar and Planetary, Chemical, Organic, Macro, and finally Micro, only Micro Evolution can be, and has been, observed using the scientific method. The other 5 categories of evolution are not observable, nor have they EVER been observed, nor can the scientific method, in totality, be applied to them.

Too bad. Because I can give little Timmy a Walmart telescope for his birthday and he with his own eyes can observe cosmic and stellar evolution, RIGHT THERE. He can see galaxies, nebulas, stars and planets born...and other areas in the sky where stars or galaxies are dying again, just to pick one example.

Your statement cosmic, stellar or planetary evolution "cannot be observed using the scientific method" I can only call utterly ridiculous, as if for example evolution of our own planet or even about other planets like Mars would be a secret.

I would like to know about your qualification in physics, quantum physics, astrophysics so that you're be able to make a statement like "the scientific method cannot be applied"...while for decades thousands of scientists successfully do EXACTLY THAT.

"Successfully" of course also means to constantly develop new, better theories and to revise older ones.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed

What do his qualification matter? If he is wrong you can simply show him he is wrong. Tell him how the scientific method could be applied in concept.

a reply to: waltwillis
Um? not sure where your going with that one boss.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

The answer is wolves into dogs. We changed the grey wolf into a chihuahua as well as thousands of other dog breeds..... And that was in a few thousand years. Nature has millions of years.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Oh and they have observed the combining of elements to make new ones in the lab.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I can only speculate, my first guess would be that mom had more than one baby with the defect and they (heaven forbid) bred with each other. Also we now have evidence of human / neanderthal and human / denisovian breeding so perhaps the differentiation of species is not as hard and fast as we once believed (and early in the mutation process breeding may still very possible).

Now we could start sequencing chimp DNA and comparing it to human, the Chimpanzee Genome Project has done just that.

Turns out we have some DNA in common with the chimp that we do not have in common with the bonobo (and the reverse is true as well we share some with the bonobo that they do not share with the chimp).

These differences suggest that the ancestral population of apes that gave rise to humans, chimps, and bonobos was quite large and diverse genetically—numbering about 27,000 breeding individuals. Once the ancestors of humans split from the ancestor of bonobos and chimps more than 4 million years ago, the common ancestor of bonobos and chimps retained this diversity until their population completely split into two groups 1 million years ago. The groups that evolved into bonobos, chimps, and humans all retained slightly different subsets of this ancestral population's diverse gene pool—and those differences now offer clues today to the size and range of diversity in that ancestral group.

sciencemag.org

Over time we will likely be able to piece together a better timeline and have a better understanding of the actual genetic changes that took place over time.

Again, it is easy to say that the creator used the same parts to make all of us and be done with it.