Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

a reply to: Prime80

That would be a trick in solving a problem man has had back to the time man formed communities of more than a dozen people or so. Archaeologists love finding money. It's one of the mainstays to give tangible story and context to a site as well as how it played in context to it's times.....because money does carry back to the very beginning.

Without some form of commonly agreed upon value to a standard base of trade? How does trade work beyond the community level (if there) where people tend to know one another and trust can be developed over time to replace the security found in the standards of a base currency?

A fiat currency as we have now is make-believe fantasy land nonsense...and cannot last. Math says that. No person even has to. Currency backed by literal 1:1 trade of an accepted standard of value is what makes trade possible tho?

I think pre-settler Native American systems had it correct, the way they ran their tribes was thousands of years in advance of us feudal heathen whites. Instead of progressing as a race, we're regressing.

And don't give me the tribal war BS, to cite as a drawback to their living, because we are supposed to be civilized, yet our wars have killed many more people than the Native Americans ever have, and ours spreads like a disease to every nation. We are considered civil, and they were considered savages? That's an f*ing joke!! We took advantage of them, and we, the true diseased barbarians almost wiped them out, instead of bettering ourselves, we went and f***ed up their nation and we continue doing the same across every nation.

When will we progress to their stage of spiritual development? I think that one way or another we better begin to or soon we will see mass genocide of our Caucasian selves, and it won't be through other people, it'll be mother nature ridding the Earth of her parasites.

originally posted by: onequestion
Yes I am saying it,

CAPITALISM DOESN'T and IS NOT WORKIG

Ok I know what your response is going to be, it's not capitalism it's an oligarchy, it's crony capitalism, it's everything else. But guess what, capitalism is what brought us into the oligarchy it's what got us into this mess.

It creates social incentives for greed and wealth and does not benefit humanity as a whole it benefits the top percentage of greedy wealthy sociopaths at the top who understand it best.

We need to come up with a system that doesn't require people to starve, doesn't pollute the earth and destroy the rainforest, that doesn't enslave Africa and South America.

So people any suggestions ?

Yes, I have a complete solution. As far as a political and economic model I dont have an easy label for it, but I will explain it.

Capitalism is not a form of government, it is not a political theory - it is simply the idea that the labor of an individual belongs to them, and to nobody else - I completely agree with this concept - but this is not exercised anywhere in the world. Once a govt can tax people without their consent, with the threat of violence - then any semblance of capitalism is gone.

However - hidden within most peoples understanding of capitalism is a critical mistake - there is property that exists that is NOT a product of human labor. For example, sunshine, air, water, real estate, natural living things and so on.

The mistake of modern capitalism is to treat these things as if they are, or even could be private property - they are not - they are common property.

All property is easily divided into private property, and common property. So all the bounty of the oceans, naturally growing tree's and other living things, air, water sunshine, minerals, oil, gas and real estate etc do not exist as a product of human labor and are common property (it is convenient to label this as 'land')- all those things which exist that are contingent upon human beings are the private properties of human beings. A human beings private property are all those things which are contingent upon the existence of that human being - that is mind, body, emotional state, public persona, character, private thoughts and writings and of course labor and the products of labor.

However it is easily seen that products of labor are always mingled with common property (that is to make a chair you need wood, or to make an engine your need metals and so on) - this is not a paradox - the labor component belongs to the person - the material it is made of is common property. A person may control common property - but does not own it. When it comes to disposal (that is destroying the labor component - leaving only common property), then it is handled as common property by law. For example - you can demolish your house, but common property law might require that you recycle the copper and other metals - the wood on the other hand is renewable, so common property law would probably say you can do what you like with it. The value is private property - because value is created by human labor, so you can sell the copper, but law might say you cant throw it away.

There is one law that will allow people to live together in peace, 'Whosoever infringes the property of another being without their consent commits an unlawful act.'

Now if the entire natural world is common property, the fairest way to distribute common property is to divide it equally between all living people. However, to allow this division it is required that the law be upheld - therefore only those willing to uphold the law and to protect it should benefit - I call these people (or groups in some cases) sovereigns.


This means that every sovereign has an equal share of all the common property - and it is unlawful for anyone to infringe that common property without consent.

This means that anyone who wants to pollute the air, fish the sea, own real estate and fence it off, pollute the water, raise living creates (including plants) must do so with the consent of the majority. To obtain the consent of the majority for most standard uses of common property - it is reasonable that the rest of humanity charges them rent - after all they are making use of property that everyone else has a share of.

It is also reasonable that all things that are basic to the survival of a human being are rent free - this means air to breathe, water to drink, some land to live on, sunshine that falls on you or your land, paths that you travel and so on.

This means that use of land requires democratic consent - so animals for example are not private property - but are common property. So you can control animals (as a farmer perhaps), and benefit from your labor by raising and selling them for food, leather, fibers and so on - but you cannot just decide you are going to beat them to death with a spiked club. The treatment of the animals - and what you can do with them must be decided democratically.

Fish in the sea for example which grow naturally and not as a result of human labor - then everyone is entitled to rent charged for the privilege of catching and selling them - but animals you raise on your own land have a much larger labor component and would not even be on that land if you did not move them there - ie they are very close to private property and would command no rent.

The simplest way to manage all the rental is to determine how much pollution the air and water can take, how much fish can be fished, how many tree's can be felled and so on - and to trade rights to use those resources on a common market. Democratic laws could restrict you in many ways, the type of tree or fish taken - the method and so on. The rent could be collected and paid out to everyone.

Real estate is also common property - so cannot be private property. Any buildings or improvements are private property - but the unimproved land is common property and should attract rent - which would be collected and paid to everyone.

When you leave all the guns in the hands of any group - they will ultimately oppress every other group. To avoid this every sovereign would be REQUIRED to be a soldier, policeman and juror - and would be REQUIRED to act when needed.

For those who did not want to take on the risks and responsibilities of sovereigns they could be citizens - being the common property of the sovereigns - that would be a choice. Only sovereigns could vote on common property laws, and receive rent - but all citizens would be protected by common property law (so citizens would likely enjoy all the same protections as sovereigns - but not be able to vote, nor to receive rent.) Anyone who was unable to act as a sovereign, such as children, disabled and mentally incompetent would be citizens - protected by common property laws.

There is a great deal more to this political system, but I dont want to write 100 pages - suffice to say if common property is recognized and the people are all armed and willing to uphold the law then you only need a way to establish the common laws, collect and disburse rent and this is a workable system.

Self reliance is critical for such a system, and this would require a culture which is supported by tradition, myth, symbols, celebrations and ceremonies.

As long as there is greed no system will work in the short or long run.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
The Bankers control of money is and has the final say in the matter .Take that control away from them and the laws that allow monopolies and then the little guys will be able to work .It is our labor that should have the biggest worth but they have the system turned upside down .

This is getting warm. The problem with 'capitalism' is the insatiable hunger for constant growth and bigger profits, fueled by speculative investing and enabled by a fractional reserve banking system that creates top-heavy wealth built on a foundation of unsustainable debt.

Get rid of fractional reserve banking, get rid of speculative markets, reinstate financial controls and punitive measures for abusers. You want to grow your money? Invest in companies and wait for their natural demand-based growth to provide dividends. Of course I am no financial guru, so I don't know if that would really work, but what we have now is on the verge of collapse. Maybe I'm talkin outta my butt, who knows.

Also, socialism DOES NOT work - it has been tried and has failed many times, so let's not even go there.

a reply to: ldyserenity

Without capitalism, there would be no PC, without the PC, there would be no Internet, without the Internet, there would be no attempt to understand each other and resolve differences. The Internet has also made acquiring knowledge infinitely easier.

As far as to what happened to the Indians. unfortunately, that was a very necessary evil. If the Mongolians hadn't taken over the world, then the Chinese would have smarten up eventually and tried to take over the world. Heck, the Mongolians almost did by conquering China and got the Chinese to fight for them. At least with technology, you can coordinate everyone to fight back. Now this is not to say that what the West and certainly not what the Mongolians did were right, because to me, relying on numerical superiority or technological superiority is neither an honorable way of resolving things, but rather logic and a fundamental set of principles that most people agree on is the best way to do so.

a reply to: tmeister182

And that's why I say that Native Americans were eons advanced as us, we're infants. Yes, they fought with other close tribes over boundaries. But for the most part they did that because of the infringement of those tribes on their commons.See amagnon's post above yours.

a reply to: np6888

This is completely false, technology can totally still have arisen from the simple fact that people are always looking to make life easier. It just would've happened a different way. A more conducive way to be more precise. Without butt raping the majority of the world while doing so. Just closed minded people think the way you're thinking. Innovation will always happen cause as a race we adore shiny new things.

a reply to: tmeister182

As long as ignorance exists, no system will work. If you were to look at history, Christianity has killed, Islam has killed, atheism has killed, capitalism has killed, communism has killed, racism has killed, imperialism has killed.

If I were to sum up everything, I'd say it's ignorance/intolerance that's killed the most, whether it's belief in a book, a concept or that one race is superior another, it's ignorance. And I would say that out of all websites, this site has contributed the most in "denying ignorance," by far, so I guess all ATS members can be proud of that.

a reply to: Vovin

The people own the means of production.

How does that fit in here?:

originally posted by: Prime80
Cut and dry answer: Eliminate all currency

No system that involves currency will last.
Eliminate money and you will eliminate the majority of the world's problems.

Back to barter?

I can understand why the Chinese think that Capitalism is so wonderful what with being in a communistic dictatorship. Also, since once they come to America it's them that's getting all the real estate. For us it sucks because how the hell would they feel if they grew up here busting their ass only to have nothing, no work, no property, no food to put on the table meanwhile watching all the foreigners getting all the real estate, all the business grants (that should go to hard working Americans) and seeing them keeping their businesses closed to hiring anybody from said country that they're operating in (basically discriminatory hiring practices, etc). Meanwhile we have to hire people we don't want to because apparently only natural citizens here gotta follow equal opportunity hiring laws, I could go on for pages and pages. It seems across the globe everyone is hell bent on destroying the American Citizens' lives just because of the sheer hatred for our government, which isn't even goddamn representative of our citizens anymore.

a reply to: onequestion

We need to come up with a system that doesn't require people to starve, doesn't pollute the earth and destroy the rainforest, that doesn't enslave Africa and South America. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wait what ?

Are people just too stupid or sorry to take care of themselves.

They need 'something' else too?

Is that it ?

Such contempt for their fellow man.

Lets take a look at those 'social incentives' that exist already.

Social Security,- a vow of poverty.
Medicare- a joke compared to private 'evil corporate' healthcare.
Medicaid- even a bigger joke than Medicare.
Free homes- saw how that turned out, and almost destroyed this country.
The trillion dollar student loan debt is being 'forgiven'.

Capitalism does work, and it is working wonderfully for the majority.

Someone else is paying their GD bills.

Going to be BLUNT here.

I can't stand social engineering, and that is what this thread is all about.

See there is this thing call EVOLUTION.

And that means people adapting to a changing environment.

Hell that is how we supposedly became 'top of the food chain'.

Until the social engineers came on to the scene.

All they are about is using FASCISM to change the environment to suit the materialistic WANTS of the masses.

And they have done such a 'wonderful' job so far.

Since the 'war on poverty' began there are now more people BROKE, more DEPENDENT on government for their existence than EVER BEFORE.

And now they want 'more' !

Absolutely true some people are greedy, but not who is usually made the vilain in this little story.

a reply to: neo96

Corporatism is not evolving it's regression right back to Egypt.
Any moron who supports that should be made to live in that world...somewhere other than Earth, amongst other idiots like themselves.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: ldyserenity

Corporatism is not evolving it's regression right back to Egypt.

People depending on others, and their proxy government is REGRESSION.

It is devolution akin to what they say about feeding the 'animals' at zoos.

They say that is a big no no, and the reason is it creates dependency, and they are unable to fend for themselves if the ever returned to the wild.

Any moron who supports that should be made to live in that world...somewhere other than Earth, amongst other idiots like themselves

That is how I feel about those who have created a dependency based society such as we currently have even more so those who are trying to expand that epic stupidity.

There is not enough money in the world to pay for the materialistic wants of the masses.

Never said a GD thing about 'corporatism' btw.

a reply to: neo96

I can't stand any moron that continually blames the poor sweating their asses off to hand the "complainers" their big macs, it's not those people ruining America, it's the frauds (which is only a small portion at that of welfare recipients) and most are illegal aliens at that and NOT US citizens.

It is not the poor tearing the # out of the country, its the so called 1% and the idiots who continually support them.
That is all.

No I stated it's Corporatism not the poor ruining the damn country. That's what I said. You should not reply if you can't simply even comprehend a post.

a reply to: ldyserenity

I can't stand any moron that continually blames the poor sweating their asses off to hand the "complainers" their big macs,

Nice red herring feel free to quote whoever said that.

It is not the poor tearing the # out of the country, its the so called 1% and the idiots who continually support them. That is all.

It is that evil 1% who pays their GD bills.

The American republic has endured for well over two centuries, but over the past 50 years, the apparatus of American governance has undergone a radical transformation. In some basic respects—its scale, its preoccupations, even many of its purposes—the U.S. government today would be scarcely recognizable to Franklin D. Roosevelt, much less to Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson.

In 2010 alone, government at all levels oversaw a transfer of over $2.2 trillion in money, goods and services. The burden of these entitlements came to slightly more than $7,200 for every person in America. Scaled against a notional family of four, the average entitlements burden for that year alone approached $29,000.

online.wsj.com...

Have anything other than demagoguery?

a reply to: neo96

I pay my bills and live only within my means which means sacrificing and because of my poor lifestyle (meaning No frills clothing, no cable, no internet sometimes no electric even) and have to deal with idiots like you making assumptions of me just because outward appearances. Although a lot of people close to me are on assistance and have to deal with that attitude all while making big macs for them. But any poor person gets the same damn treatment whether or not they're on assistance because you automatically ASSume they're on assistance.It's obvious here the same can be said of anyone that supports a different system whether or not it's socialism. I doubt that the Native Americans would have called their way of living "socialism" not by any means. What did I say about socialism, where???

I said nothing about socialism at all. There's more systems than just those two and I gave an example. Which was Native American type of system (smaller city state type government) read up on it. Learn something.

peace out.

a reply to: onequestion

Capitalism works! We just haven't seen it. We arent allowed to supply and demand. We have laws in place that make sure that you cannot make money on your own. If it can make you rich its illegal or the government screws you with taxes that is not capitalism.