Before and after views of D-day

originally posted by: swanne

originally posted by: nugget1
Today, I see governing bodies squeezing people into a corner where 'fight or flight' instinct seems to be kicking in.

What if their plan depends on you giving in to this instinct?

Why do so many people seem to think that bullying a bully will end bullying?

In all of history of mankind, violent Revolutions never worked once. They all ended up with a reign of terror of some kind, and a peasant becoming the next dictator.

Mankind should learn from its mistakes...

It appears to me that that is the plan in motion right now. Unfortunately, it seems to be working. People refuse to see the forest for the trees.

FFS - Germany did not offer " peace " they offered germancentric limits to war - that allowed unchecked german aggression against who ever they wanted

further Germany ONLY attempted to negotiate these limits - because she knew the cost of a war with france and Britain

originally posted by: swanne
a reply to: Shepard64

People were smaller back then?

They were more affluent also,they could afford more clothes!

a reply to: swanne

The Sea level didn't rise, the sand level dropped. Literally. Look at the one large building we can use as a real gauge of anything and the level of sand back in the B&W days, right up to the edges of it's exposed foundation or whatever that is...vs being taken clear down to a 'beach' level and terra-formed with plants that were never there, in the name of erosion control. The differences aren't radical for vertical feet, but on scale? That's a bunch of sand and re-work over the years!

It's an interesting picture of man's effort to control nature, actually.

(One of those everyone sees something different in, I suppose)

a reply to: swanne

Oh brother. /Facepalm

To the OP, thank you for the link. Very fascinating. It's chilling to see how peaceful these places are now compared to what they once witnessed. I can't get enough of it. Thanks again.

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany wanted Eastern Europe.

So they invaded Western Europe.... well, I suppose that makes sense to a revisionist!

Britain decaled war on Germany.

Britain would have invaded neutral Norway but the Germans got there the day before.

Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

Germany didn't want France, but it couldn't ignore war with France and still attack the Soviet Union.

Too bad about your empire. Africa would be a lot better off if it had lasted a bit longer. Probably the middle east as well.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

You left out a few bits of information....

Britain and France would come to Poland's aid if attacked by a foreign power.
Both Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland.
Britain and France declared war on Germany.

But somehow you make out that was France and Britain's fault!

Revisionism at its best.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany wanted Eastern Europe.

So they invaded Western Europe.... well, I suppose that makes sense to a revisionist!

Britain decaled war on Germany.

Britain would have invaded neutral Norway but the Germans got there the day before.

Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

Germany didn't want France, but it couldn't ignore war with France and still attack the Soviet Union.

Too bad about your empire. Africa would be a lot better off if it had lasted a bit longer. Probably the middle east as well.

Germany invaded Poland, thus proving that Hitler couldn't be trusted in any way shape or form. Hell, his takeover of Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939 showed that! As for Dunkirk, the BEF was not 'allowed to get away', it was very lucky. Goering's Luftwaffe was supposed to annihilate the BEF and stop the evacuation. Luckily Goering performed as expected - a total incompetent.

So I was just gonna stay out of this because this is not why I posted this forum but anyway its already been derailed quite a bit. Do you really think hitler would have left Britain alone and given them undisputed power of the oceans. Hitler was known for manipulation, I am willing to bet that that was a lie so that his "blitzreig" strategy would have worked but fortunately thanks to the British he had to fight on both fronts which basically screwed Hitlers plans.

originally posted by: Shepard64
So I was just gonna stay out of this because this is not why I posted this forum but anyway its already been derailed quite a bit. Do you really think hitler would have left Britain alone and given them undisputed power of the oceans. Hitler was known for manipulation, I am willing to bet that that was a lie so that his "blitzreig" strategy would have worked but fortunately thanks to the British he had to fight on both fronts which basically screwed Hitlers plans.

Good question. Basically the answer is another question; why on earth would the British have trusted Hitler, given the fact that he broke every international agreement that he made?

a reply to: hellobruce

But somehow you make out that was France and Britain's fault!

England didn't have treaty with Poland until March 3, 1939.

England let Poland fight alone in 1919 against the Soviet Union.

Someone in England wanted a war.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: hellobruce

But somehow you make out that was France and Britain's fault!

England didn't have treaty with Poland until March 3, 1939.

England let Poland fight alone in 1919 against the Soviet Union.

Someone in England wanted a war.

The UK signed that treaty with Poland after Hitler smashed the Munich Agreement and sent his troops into Bohemia-Moravia, areas that had never been a part of Germany.

In 1919 British troops were already fighting in Russia against the Soviets.

Chamberlain did not want a war. Unfortunately he realised that Hitler could not be trusted.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany wanted Eastern Europe.

So they invaded Western Europe.... well, I suppose that makes sense to a revisionist!

Britain decaled war on Germany.

Britain would have invaded neutral Norway but the Germans got there the day before.

Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

Germany didn't want France, but it couldn't ignore war with France and still attack the Soviet Union.

Too bad about your empire. Africa would be a lot better off if it had lasted a bit longer. Probably the middle east as well.

Germany invaded Poland, thus proving that Hitler couldn't be trusted in any way shape or form. Hell, his takeover of Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939 showed that! As for Dunkirk, the BEF was not 'allowed to get away', it was very lucky. Goering's Luftwaffe was supposed to annihilate the BEF and stop the evacuation. Luckily Goering performed as expected - a total incompetent.

If the Germans really thought that an air force could destroy an army, they would have an air force and nothing else.

The NAZI's wanted eastern Europe, not Britain or France.

There were a lot of communists in the governments on both sides of the Atlantic, both Britain and the United States

Why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union?

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany wanted Eastern Europe.

So they invaded Western Europe.... well, I suppose that makes sense to a revisionist!

Britain decaled war on Germany.

Britain would have invaded neutral Norway but the Germans got there the day before.

Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

Germany didn't want France, but it couldn't ignore war with France and still attack the Soviet Union.

Too bad about your empire. Africa would be a lot better off if it had lasted a bit longer. Probably the middle east as well.

Germany invaded Poland, thus proving that Hitler couldn't be trusted in any way shape or form. Hell, his takeover of Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939 showed that! As for Dunkirk, the BEF was not 'allowed to get away', it was very lucky. Goering's Luftwaffe was supposed to annihilate the BEF and stop the evacuation. Luckily Goering performed as expected - a total incompetent.

If the Germans really thought that an air force could destroy an army, they would have an air force and nothing else.

The NAZI's wanted eastern Europe, not Britain or France.

There were a lot of communists in the governments on both sides of the Atlantic, both Britain and the United States

Why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union?

Hitler and Von Rundstedt were worried about the panzers getting hung up in the canals that dot the region. They therefore mostly used infantry with artillery support - plus the Luftwaffe. Hitler didn't understand the fact that the Royal Navy was going to be moving heaven and earth to get the Allied troops out - which they did.

The Nazis wanted power and they wanted revenge for World War 1.

I fail to see your point about there being communists in power. Besides, apart from a few spies (the Cambridge Ring) where were the high-ranking communists in the British Government???

As for why no declaration of war - Russia was in the middle of a civil war at the time. The UK didn't even recognise the Soviet Union until around 1924 if I recall correctly.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: hellobruce

But somehow you make out that was France and Britain's fault!

England didn't have treaty with Poland until March 3, 1939.

England let Poland fight alone in 1919 against the Soviet Union.

Someone in England wanted a war.

The UK signed that treaty with Poland after Hitler smashed the Munich Agreement and sent his troops into Bohemia-Moravia, areas that had never been a part of Germany.

Same as England invading Ireland.

In 1919 British troops were already fighting in Russia against the Soviets.

England never declared war on the Soviet Union, even though the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1919.

Chamberlain did not want a war. Unfortunately he realised that Hitler could not be trusted.

I appreciate Chamberlain a lot more as I get older.

Hitler could be trusted to do what he said he was going to do for 10 years. Which was the conquest of Eastern Europe, war against the communists.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Hitler could be trusted to do what he said he was going to do for 10 years. Which was the conquest of Eastern Europe, war against the communists.

He also had plans for the future included the annexation of the Scandinavian countries, and also Alsace and Lorraine; Belgium and northern France would follow, while Great Britain might be annexed or kept as a puppet state.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: hellobruce

But somehow you make out that was France and Britain's fault!

England didn't have treaty with Poland until March 3, 1939.

England let Poland fight alone in 1919 against the Soviet Union.

Someone in England wanted a war.

The UK signed that treaty with Poland after Hitler smashed the Munich Agreement and sent his troops into Bohemia-Moravia, areas that had never been a part of Germany.

Same as England invading Ireland.

In 1919 British troops were already fighting in Russia against the Soviets.

England never declared war on the Soviet Union, even though the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1919.

Chamberlain did not want a war. Unfortunately he realised that Hitler could not be trusted.

I appreciate Chamberlain a lot more as I get older.

Hitler could be trusted to do what he said he was going to do for 10 years. Which was the conquest of Eastern Europe, war against the communists.

I fail to understand your point about the English and Ireland. They also invaded Wales. Neither has anything to do with this topic. Hitler had no business taking over what remained of the Czech Republic. The moment he did that he tore up the Munich Agreement and showed that he could NOT be trusted in any way.
As for your comment about the UK declaring war on the Communists - see my comments above on the Russian Civil War.
Finally Hitler did not just talk about taking over Eastern Europe. He talked about tearing up the Treaty of Versailles. He invaded neutral countries, he sent in the scum of the SS, he persecuted minorities and he started the Holocaust. I am uncertain as to why you are defending him. The man was a mass-murdering piece of vileness.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany wanted Eastern Europe.

So they invaded Western Europe.... well, I suppose that makes sense to a revisionist!

Britain decaled war on Germany.

Britain would have invaded neutral Norway but the Germans got there the day before.

Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

Germany didn't want France, but it couldn't ignore war with France and still attack the Soviet Union.

Too bad about your empire. Africa would be a lot better off if it had lasted a bit longer. Probably the middle east as well.

Germany invaded Poland, thus proving that Hitler couldn't be trusted in any way shape or form. Hell, his takeover of Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939 showed that! As for Dunkirk, the BEF was not 'allowed to get away', it was very lucky. Goering's Luftwaffe was supposed to annihilate the BEF and stop the evacuation. Luckily Goering performed as expected - a total incompetent.

If the Germans really thought that an air force could destroy an army, they would have an air force and nothing else.

The NAZI's wanted eastern Europe, not Britain or France.

There were a lot of communists in the governments on both sides of the Atlantic, both Britain and the United States

Why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union?

Hitler and Von Rundstedt were worried about the panzers getting hung up in the canals that dot the region. They therefore mostly used infantry with artillery support - plus the Luftwaffe. Hitler didn't understand the fact that the Royal Navy was going to be moving heaven and earth to get the Allied troops out - which they did.

Dunkirk did have extremely calm seas that week. Some solders walked out into the ocean up to their chins and waited there.
However, Germany would have captured Dunkirk if was planning to invade England. The generals on the scene knew it could be done.

Germany had 26 U Boats in 1939. Germany would have had 300 more U Boats if it were planning to invade England.

The Nazis wanted power

So did the Soviet Union.

and they wanted revenge for World War 1.

Why is that?

I fail to see your point about there being communists in power. Besides, apart from a few spies (the Cambridge Ring) where were the high-ranking communists in the British Government???

Starving millions of Ukranians is OK, and seizing half of Poland is OK, as long as its not Germany, then.

As for why no declaration of war - Russia was in the middle of a civil war at the time. The UK didn't even recognise the Soviet Union until around 1924 if I recall correctly.

Polish allies were few. France, continuing its policy of countering Bolshevism now that the Whites in Russia proper had been almost completely defeated, sent a 400-strong advisory group to Poland's aid in 1919. It consisted mostly of French officers, although it also included a few British advisers led by Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton De Wiart.

Western advisory group

England knew the Bolsheviks were invading Europe. No declaration of anything against the Bolsheviks.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Germany wanted Eastern Europe.

So they invaded Western Europe.... well, I suppose that makes sense to a revisionist!

Britain decaled war on Germany.

Britain would have invaded neutral Norway but the Germans got there the day before.

Germany invaded France after France declared war on Germany.

Germany didn't want France, but it couldn't ignore war with France and still attack the Soviet Union.

Too bad about your empire. Africa would be a lot better off if it had lasted a bit longer. Probably the middle east as well.

Germany invaded Poland, thus proving that Hitler couldn't be trusted in any way shape or form. Hell, his takeover of Bohemia-Moravia in March 1939 showed that! As for Dunkirk, the BEF was not 'allowed to get away', it was very lucky. Goering's Luftwaffe was supposed to annihilate the BEF and stop the evacuation. Luckily Goering performed as expected - a total incompetent.

If the Germans really thought that an air force could destroy an army, they would have an air force and nothing else.

The NAZI's wanted eastern Europe, not Britain or France.

There were a lot of communists in the governments on both sides of the Atlantic, both Britain and the United States

Why didn't Britain declare war on the Soviet Union?

Hitler and Von Rundstedt were worried about the panzers getting hung up in the canals that dot the region. They therefore mostly used infantry with artillery support - plus the Luftwaffe. Hitler didn't understand the fact that the Royal Navy was going to be moving heaven and earth to get the Allied troops out - which they did.

Dunkirk did have extremely calm seas that week. Some solders walked out into the ocean up to their chins and waited there.
However, Germany would have captured Dunkirk if was planning to invade England. The generals on the scene knew it could be done.

Germany had 26 U Boats in 1939. Germany would have had 300 more U Boats if it were planning to invade England.

The Nazis wanted power

So did the Soviet Union.

and they wanted revenge for World War 1.

Why is that?

I fail to see your point about there being communists in power. Besides, apart from a few spies (the Cambridge Ring) where were the high-ranking communists in the British Government???

Starving millions of Ukranians is OK, and seizing half of Poland is OK, as long as its not Germany, then.

As for why no declaration of war - Russia was in the middle of a civil war at the time. The UK didn't even recognise the Soviet Union until around 1924 if I recall correctly.

Polish allies were few. France, continuing its policy of countering Bolshevism now that the Whites in Russia proper had been almost completely defeated, sent a 400-strong advisory group to Poland's aid in 1919. It consisted mostly of French officers, although it also included a few British advisers led by Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton De Wiart.

Western advisory group

England knew the Bolsheviks were invading Europe. No declaration of anything against the Bolsheviks.

The issue of if Operation Sealion could have worked is a highly vexed one. The considered consensus at the moment is that if the Nazis had gotten over the Channel they could never have supplied them, as their supply lines would have been obliterated behind them by the Royal Navy. As for Dunkirk, Germany's generals (and Hitler) did not understand the power of the Royal Navy.
Once the Soviets were thrashed at the Battle of Warsaw any need for Western intervention in Poland vanished. Poland's Eastern border was stable up until 1939. There was no further Soviet interference until then.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: hellobruce

But somehow you make out that was France and Britain's fault!

England didn't have treaty with Poland until March 3, 1939.

England let Poland fight alone in 1919 against the Soviet Union.

Someone in England wanted a war.

The UK signed that treaty with Poland after Hitler smashed the Munich Agreement and sent his troops into Bohemia-Moravia, areas that had never been a part of Germany.

Same as England invading Ireland.

In 1919 British troops were already fighting in Russia against the Soviets.

England never declared war on the Soviet Union, even though the Soviet Union invaded Poland in 1919.

Chamberlain did not want a war. Unfortunately he realised that Hitler could not be trusted.

I appreciate Chamberlain a lot more as I get older.

Hitler could be trusted to do what he said he was going to do for 10 years. Which was the conquest of Eastern Europe, war against the communists.

I fail to understand your point about the English and Ireland. They also invaded Wales. Neither has anything to do with this topic. Hitler had no business taking over what remained of the Czech Republic.

Germany had as much right to claim the Czech Republic (no right IMO) as England had to keep Ireland (no right IMO)
The same rational in both cases.

The moment he did that he tore up the Munich Agreement and showed that he could NOT be trusted in any way.

England conquered 70% of the planet. You say England never violated a treaty?

As for your comment about the UK declaring war on the Communists - see my comments above on the Russian Civil War.

England knew the Bolsheviks were invading Europe. No declaration of anything against the Bolsheviks.

Finally Hitler did not just talk about taking over Eastern Europe. He talked about tearing up the Treaty of Versailles. He invaded neutral countries, he sent in the scum of the SS, he persecuted minorities and he started the Holocaust. I am uncertain as to why you are defending him. The man was a mass-murdering piece of vileness.

I'm not defending Hitler. I'm saying that war with NAZI Germany was not necessary. Hitler didn't invade France until after France declared war on Germany. Hitler offered peace to England and never tried to invade England.

The Treaty of Versailles was victor's justice, after 4 years of the British Navy starving German and Belgian and Dutch civilians.

The Germans invaded Norway one day ahead of the Anglo-French Invasion, England tried to invade neutral Norway.

The Communist Soviet Union did everything the NAZIs did, killed 20 million in a different way, but no shooting war against the USSR.