China summons US envoy over cyberspying charges

China doesn't seem to be taking this whole thing very well. In fact, they seem downright offended by the fact we'd charge anyone with anything.

China summoned the U.S. ambassador and the Defense Ministry warned Tuesday of "serious damage" to military relations after the United States charged five Chinese army officers with hacking into U.S. companies to steal vital trade secrets.

China's response marked a rapid escalation in a dispute that has deeply angered Beijing over U.S. claims that the Chinese military is illegally helping the country's massive state industries.

Okay, China really has absolutely no sense of humor here. If folks go look at the source article and the 'wanted poster', I suppose I can see why China may be a little irked.

Did they have to churn out wanted posters for overseas publication the same day, it seems, as the charges were announced? That's a bit interesting for a high profile move. (The line at the bottom of the posters indicates one should contact an American Embassy or Consulate...which says the market it was intended for, I'd think)

In its statement, the Defense Ministry repeated the charges, but added that the U.S. accusations would send a chill through gradually warming relations between their two militaries.

"Up to now, relations between the China-U.S. militaries had been development well overall," the ministry said. "The U.S., by this action, betrays its commitment to building healthy, stable, reliable military-to-military relations and causes serious damage to mutual trust between the sides."

Source

It seems to me we need to take China a bit more seriously here.

Kerry and the President seem to treat the Chinese like lesser players at the table or someone the US can talk down to. In past times, I think that's largely been true for a number of reasons. Not least of which was a technological gap between agrarian society and space age, literally for the extremes. That doesn't seem so much an issue now as it once was, and the disputes are in China's direct area of influence. Not ours.

I do hope the US plays this carefully and very deliberately. This feels like one of those moments where history could shift on good or bad decisions, alike.

** Additional Reference : Cryptome 56 Page PDF of full text Federal Indictment

I maybe a bit thick but .....

Since when does US law apply to people outside their country.

Obviously these people have not broken any of China's laws. What makes the US think it can go and issue arrest warrants for people who (presumably) have never set foot on US soil, and who never will.

This is just insane.

No one asked for the US to be the world police and quite frankly, they are not suited for the job.

China will not like the utter hypocrisy of this US move, not one little bit. I think many countries are getting sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the US Government.

I don't understand what the US hopes to achieve or how they have evidence against these five. Did the hackers leave their names behind.

P

This had to happen, just wish we had a more adept leader doing it. We're about 15 years too late even. We need to get out of China, build in India.

originally posted by: pheonix358
I maybe a bit thick but .....



Since when does US law apply to people outside their country.



Obviously these people have not broken any of China's laws. What makes the US think it can go and issue arrest warrants for people who (presumably) have never set foot on US soil, and who never will.



This is just insane.



No one asked for the US to be the world police and quite frankly, they are not suited for the job.



China will not like the utter hypocrisy of this US move, not one little bit. I think many countries are getting sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the US Government.



I don't understand what the US hopes to achieve or how they have evidence against these five. Did the hackers leave their names behind.



P

What does this have to do with World Police? Do you have the slightest idea what is going on? China is using it's military to sabotage American businesses and steal from them, with the goal of destroying the US economy and replacing US businesses with Chinese ones. They have cost the US over 5 MILLION jobs in the past 10 years.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Pentagon plans three-fold cybersecurity staff increase to counter attacks

Speaking at what has been considered the “first-ever live broadcast” from the National Security Agency’s headquarters at Ft. Meade, Maryland, Hagel said that an ongoing campaign to both recruit civilians as well as encourage military personal to retrain for the positions will see the number of “cyber professionals” reach 1,800 by year’s end. By 2016, the Pentagon should have 6,000 cyber professionals, he said Friday.

-
I don't think adding NSA Folks just to MONITOR THE SITUATION is the answer.

I think the ANSWER is at each Private-Company that is AT-RISK ... BECAUSE ... according to the article, the Chinese Folks aquired Private-Company-Secrets.

WHY? ... wasn't the Network Secrity at these Private-Companies ... Better-Prepared ???

-
SUMMARY-OPINION: If you want to stop it, stop it at the SOURCE or DESTINATION of the crime.
.

a reply to: pheonix358

It appears this was one of many things happening...

Monday's prosecution was announced on the heels of a separate worldwide operation over the weekend that resulted in the arrests of 97 people in 16 countries who are suspected of developing, distributing or using malicious software called BlackShades. Holder said the two cases illustrate an increased emphasis on cyber threats.

The criminal charges underscore a longtime Obama administration goal to prosecute state-sponsored cyberthreats, which U.S. officials say they have grappled with for years. One government report said more than 40 Pentagon weapons programs and nearly 30 other defense technologies have been compromised by cyber intrusions from China. And the cybersecurity firm Mandiant issued a report last year alleging links between a secret Chinese military unit and years of cyberattacks against U.S. companies.

Source: US charges Chinese officials in cyberspying case

I'm not sure how Obama figures this works where we willingly lose influence and power in the world, while trying to assert more arrest power and criminal authority in more places? I suppose it's working for the moment, but for how long I wonder.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Businesses have tried to talk to China. They basically said prove it and refused to do anything.

"In the past, when we brought concerns such as these to Chinese government officials, they responded by publicly challenging us to provide hard evidence of their hacking that could stand up in court," Mr Carlin said.

www.bbc.com...

You may as well hand out speeding tickets at Daytona there are no extradition arrangements between the US and China even if you could somehow have these charges ratified under international law.

originally posted by: khnum
You may as well hand out speeding tickets at Daytona there are no extradition arrangements between the US and China even if you could somehow have these charges ratified under international law.

Yes. The goal is not to actually arrest them, that will never happen. It's a message. Stop messing with our businesses, stop trying to destroy our economy.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

What does this have to do with World Police? Do you have the slightest idea what is going on? China is using it's military to sabotage American businesses and steal from them, with the goal of destroying the US economy and replacing US businesses with Chinese ones. They have cost the US over 5 MILLION jobs in the past 10 years.

I cannot agree with you. Not at all.

What has destroyed the US economy is greed, greed by the very people that are now screaming.

It is the Wallmarts that shift offshore because they want to buy toasters at $2.00 and still sell them at $20.00. It is manufactures that want to make insane profits by lowing their costs at the expense of their workers, so they move offshore.

It is in fact the whole system of an economy that maximizes profit above all else. China did not steal these jobs, the leaders of the US industry SENT the jobs overseas so they could make more and more money.

China does not make crap because they want to, they make crap because that is what Wallmart and its ilk place orders for. Make it cheaper, make it cheaper.

China is not destroying the US economy, the US Government is doing such a fine job of it, they don't need any help. China does not control the US $17T debt, the US did that all by themselves.

The US problems are internal, I suggest you fix those first, otherwise all you are doing is looking for scapegoats.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

This shows you are clueless. When China hacks a US corporation to discover their entire market strategy, and gives that information to their own company in order to outcompete and win market dominance causing the US company to lay off workers how does that NOT hurt the US economy?

originally posted by: pheonix358
I maybe a bit thick but .....

Since when does US law apply to people outside their country.

Obviously these people have not broken any of China's laws. What makes the US think it can go and issue arrest warrants for people who (presumably) have never set foot on US soil, and who never will.

This is just insane.

No one asked for the US to be the world police and quite frankly, they are not suited for the job.

China will not like the utter hypocrisy of this US move, not one little bit. I think many countries are getting sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the US Government.

I don't understand what the US hopes to achieve or how they have evidence against these five. Did the hackers leave their names behind.

P

World police...NO! Breaking Chinese laws in America...please are you serious!!! What Chinese laws in America? Chinese laws do not exist in America. Hello, this is America...not China! Chinese people do not come here and institute their law nor will on the populace of the US and vice versa. Break a law in the USA (not China) and you shall deal with American law and justice. OP is right, "we better watch out." Watch out for dumb and dumber in fact. You speak lunacy. American laws are all that matter here in the US, not Chinese laws. What the hell do you think is going on over here? We don't uphold Chinese law here! Anyone that wants Chinese law upheld should probably commit a crime in China...not the US. That's the craziest thing I've ever heard!

Hypocrisy? Well, I guess that depends on what end of the stick you're on. From my understanding, the US discovered Chinese hacking in this case. As I'm not sure where you live (and it doesn't really matter), if you steal anything from the US Government or any US state, which of course "theft" in the US in general is illegal in ANY form, then you've just committed a crime according to US/US State laws. Chinese laws mean nothing in the US...again, Chinese laws only matter in China.

Last time I checked, China is not exempt from US laws when stealing from the US, thus committing a crime against the US. Call it hypocrisy, world police or whatever you want, it's your preference I suppose...theft is theft here in the states. In the US theft is usually dealt with extreme consequences. Period. No if, ands or buts about it. Stealing is stealing and hacking is hacking. It's not right anywhere. Stealing/Hacking is no more right in the US whether the perpetrators were Chinese, Japanese Purplese or Greenese! We don't play that!

Get off whatever high horse you're sitting on and stop it with the US this and the US that bashing already, because you're one hundred percent wrong...that's 100% incorrect according to US laws. Call us hypocrites or whatever floats your boat, but in the end you had better commit your "international" crimes elsewhere...not here. Commit a crime in the US...any, all and everyone should be with!!! This is not something the US will change just because "you" think we're hypocrites.

Hopefully, you live in a country that when laws are broken, they are dealt with. Maybe not...I don't really care, because I don't live there...wherever you are. I live in the US. We are not always right, but we will not tolerate illegal intrusion of "any kind" by any foreign entity. Period.

Bash us all day (seems to be your thing on ATS anyway), it's not going to change our laws...and I'm not offended.Your entitled to your opinion...however, when you're wrong you're wrong...and you're wrong!

PS
A far as the "five" leaving their names behind....maybe they didn't spell their names out (hopefully, they are not as stupid as they seem), but they probably put their signature somewhere...signed and delivered. We're not a stupid inept nation, so stop your irrational rhetoric. It's pointless in this instance.

Laws are laws and US laws are laws when you commit a crime against the US.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I understand that. But is it not a case of the shoe being on the other foot?

For decades, the US spied on everyone. U2 flights, spies, satellites and lately, destabilizing the Governments of other countries, some even elected Governments.

At one stage the US could tell how many and what model cars were in a parking lot and later, what the license plates were. Well, now China is looking under the hood of all of those cars.

For literally decades, the US had the lead in technology and spied and spied and spied some more.

Let's face it, so did everyone else if they were able!

Now that someone else is getting good at it, the US is crying. Well, Karma is a bitch! Probably should have kept the manufacturing of the routers at home rather than having the Chinese make them. But they are cheaper!

I am damn sure that China does not keep its Top Secret Plans on computers that are connected to the internet. Who would even consider doing that ..... oh yea, well!

It seems to me that State sponsored theft is only wrong when you get caught.

If it is good for the Gander then the Goose is just going to have to lump it.

It has been a wild ride along the connectivity highway, hey, lets connect everything. Well, here come the speed bumps and pot holes. As you sow, so shall you reap.

China is getting a good crop it would seem.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

What does this have to do with World Police? Do you have the slightest idea what is going on? China is using it's military to sabotage American businesses and steal from them, with the goal of destroying the US economy and replacing US businesses with Chinese ones. They have cost the US over 5 MILLION jobs in the past 10 years.

I cannot agree with you. Not at all.

What has destroyed the US economy is greed, greed by the very people that are now screaming.
P

We'll see what China has to say when the pot ceases to call the kettle black. Greed...that's laughable at best. China's doing a real good job at engineering its own greed to boost its economy.

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

but in the end you had better commit your "international" crimes elsewhere...not here. Commit a crime in the US...any, all and everyone should be dealt will be dealt with

But these 'crimes' are not being committed in the US, the people are in China, minding there own business, they have never set foot in the US and they are playing with ones and zeros. How are they breaking US laws when they are not even US citizens.

See also my other replies.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

US spying was State vs. State. This is not State vs. State. This is State vs. Corporations.

China is using espionage to destroy American businesses and replace them with Chinese businesses. The US spies, it spies on China, it has never done this.

There may be a case where the US spies on a particular corporation, but never with the same intents as the Chinese. We are talking HUNDREDS of US businesses being sabotaged.

No. The US has never done this, ever.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

but in the end you had better commit your "international" crimes elsewhere...not here. Commit a crime in the US...any, all and everyone should be dealt will be dealt with

But these 'crimes' are not being committed in the US, the people are in China, minding there own business, they have never set foot in the US and they are playing with ones and zeros. How are they breaking US laws when they are not even US citizens.



See also my other replies.



P

No, they are not minding their own business. They are intentionally sabotaging US businesses in order to destroy them and replace them, and they are costing MILLIONS of jobs.

The next time you see someone lose their house because they got laid off tell them who cares. You certainly don't.

So State sponsored spying is great but, hang on, China is using State Sponsored spying. I can't really see the difference especially when you consider this sort of crap.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It seems to be a case of "If we do it it's OK, but if you do it, it's not."

P

Hey guys... I just found the full text indictment.

Cryptome 56 Page PDF of full text Federal Indictment

It includes color photos of them, and much more detail about what they did. Specifics of companies, amount of data taken, what it contained and on and on. It was a massive thing going here, by any description one would want to use.

Do take a bit of time to read over the original papers there though, it tells the tale and WOW... Now I see better why both countries are getting very serious over it.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

but in the end you had better commit your "international" crimes elsewhere...not here. Commit a crime in the US...any, all and everyone should be dealt will be dealt with

But these 'crimes' are not being committed in the US, the people are in China, minding there own business, they have never set foot in the US and they are playing with ones and zeros. How are they breaking US laws when they are not even US citizens.

See also my other replies.

P

OMG!!! You could not be more absent from the present than now! I'm so incredibly stupefied by your assessment of the crimes claimed by the US against China. Do you seriously think, that because said perpetrators committed crimes elsewhere (other than the US or on US soil) but against the US, that they are exempt from criminal prosecution by the US?

I'm only going to surmise that there must be something you're missing. Seriously something lacking in your assessment of this topic.

Look, stealing American Trade secrets is a crime. Did you hear me....stealing American Trade Secrets is a crime. It's a crime in the US. It pertains to the US. Stealing info about power plants...US power plants is a crime!!! It's a crime in the US because it involves the US. If we could hack/steal info from any country anywhere besides the country in which info was stolen from, the world would cease to exist at some point very very soon. There are laws internationally against such crimes. Just do some research....PLEASE.

Listen, you seem somewhat smart and no disrespect, but not smart enough to crack this one which needs no nut cracker. Just some common sense needs to be applied here. I'm not going to come with that "what if the shoe was on the other foot", crap! It doesn't matter what shoe you wore that night. That particular night someone tried on a shoe that was too big for them and they tripped and fell flat on their faces!!! Obviously their technology wasn't even good enough to know how to try on the proper sized shoe before they "stole" the shoe. I hope you get what I'm implying.

That's that. Period! They could be on planet Uranus, Mars, Jupiter, Venus or wherever they committed the crime against the US. They still broke US laws, since it involves the US.

What is it about that, that you're unable to comprehend? I mean this reply with the utmost respect...but you can't be that shallow and uninformed.

With All Due Respect,
TPE