Masonry Unmasked

OK, I'll come out and say it. I like to have positions clearly defined, and in my estimation, CC has defined his position.

I'll draw a line in the sand now, and roll with the resulting punches, if there be any.

CC is a Christian fundamentalist who has made an attempt to soften his words in order to make his position more palatable - which in essence, is not. CC is simply an anti-Mason who attacks Masonry through the back door instead of barging in directly. His posts, if examined piecemeal, do not amount to anything very extreme either way, but taken for all in all, his posiiton and intent is quite obvious. CC has done this plenty of times before, only to backtrack with a few nice words and sentiments. Then, all of a sudden, he fires back with "my priest said ths and the bible says that", effectively nullifying his previous "moderate position", which was simply a ruse.

A very clever and sublte way of attacking all things that don't seem Christian . . . . but the problem for you, CC, is that Masons have refined the fine art of sniffing out BS to new levels.

I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist...I'm Catholic. It is forbidden by my church for it's members to join Freemasonry, and I'm learning about why. And it has been proven in this thread, that there are masons that are in fact anti-Catholic, with a hatred for the Catholic church.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist...I'm Catholic. It is forbidden by my church for it's members to join Freemasonry, and I'm learning about why. And it has been proven in this thread, that there are masons that are in fact anti-Catholic, with a hatred for the Catholic church.

I fail to see your conclusion here. If you had not said anything detrimental to wards masonry and had been attacked then you have a case.

Your topic is on a book which , knowing the author will be dramatically anti Masonic, you then post up examples of pedaphelia cocerning a mason.

Then you wonder why you and your position are attacked, well of course people will defend themselves when attacked.

Have you ever started a topic not attacking Masonry?

If you wish to see this in an academic light you must refrian from taking an antagonistic position in the first place.

that there are masons that are in fact anti-Catholic, with a hatred for the Catholic church.

what makes you think they are all Masons? Im sure there are people all over
with reason to be anti-catholic.
i know of a place where 70% of the students when i was there were reconstructed catholics come to learn about various Old Religions.

Originally posted by billmcelligott

Your topic is on a book which , knowing the author will be dramatically anti Masonic, you then post up examples of pedaphelia cocerning a mason.

I got upset with someone telling me the church is full of pedophiles, and said where were there ever pedophiles in masonry...so I tried to find some, because I was upset with someone telling me Catholic priests are all pedophiles or something to that matter.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
And it has been proven in this thread, that there are masons that are in fact anti-Catholic, with a hatred for the Catholic church.

I am not a Mason. I was baptized and raised Catholic.
I cannot, in good conscience, ignore the history of the RCC in the world. I am not anti-Catholic, I am pro-truth.

One wonders why the RCC has such a grudge against Masonry, esp. when they created the KofC to have RCC men join instead of Masonry. Of course, KofC can be controlled by the RCC; Masonry cannot.
Can we conclude that the biggest reason RCC does not like Masonry is that Masonry cannot be controlled by them?

KofC can be controlled by the RCC; Masonry cannot.
Can we conclude that the biggest reason RCC does not like Masonry is that Masonry cannot be controlled by them?

The Knights of Columbus are a seperate independant body from the church. It operates under it's own constitution and laws. It is not under the jurisdiction of a Bishop or prelature or whatever.

There are many reasons that the Catholic church feels the faith is incompatible with Freemasonry. Especially past attacks by European Freemasons in the past. As well as a document discovered, written by the Freemasons The Instruction of the "Alta Vendita", a blueprint for the destruction and subversion of Christendom especially the Roman Catholic Church.

The surface of the "Alta Vendita" verified in the eyes of the church, that Freemasonry is definitely opposed and in conflict with the church. The findings of this document was a reason for the condemnations by several popes, and the writing of a few encyclicals.

The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita

A Masonic Blueprint for the Subversion of the Catholic Church
By: John Vennari


The author quotes the actual Masonic document, which both Pope Pius IX (1846-1878) and Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903) asked to be published. This document describes the Masons' diabolical strategy to destroy the Church by infecting her leaders with Liberal ideas.

[edit on 1-12-2004 by chief_counsellor]

Originally posted by chief_counsellor

I got upset with someone telling me the church is full of pedophiles, and said where were there ever pedophiles in masonry...so I tried to find some, because I was upset with someone telling me Catholic priests are all pedophiles or something to that matter.

The we agree, we are both Human, therefore both , or to be more accurate we all have faults.

So you can understand why I as a Christian get a little ruffled when I see

Masonry Unmasked is one of the most comprehensive books ever written about the errors of Freemasonry, and the only book ever written by a Catholic who left the Lodge. John, who was a 32nd degree Mason and expert in Masonic ritual, examines in detail the secret rituals of Freemasonry and clearly and compellingly explains why the teachings of Masonry are incompatible with the Christian faith.

The first paragraph on the link on your first post.

There are a lot of great Christians in Freemasonry and the Knights of Columbus, there is no need for any animosity between the two.

I have conversed with John Salza by mail, he seems a very nice person, I do not agree with him. but he knows that. He does not agree with me. No problem.

The difference is , I do not pass judgement on him , but he passes judgement on me.

You have to work out which of us has the Christian attitude.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The Knights of Columbus are a seperate independant body from the church.

According to the Ontario State Council, Knights of Columbus, "There are only two requirements for a man to join the Knights of Columbus: that he be a practical Catholic as understood by the Church, and that he be 18 years of age or older."
How To Join The KofC

This fully contradicts your position that the KofC is an independent body seperate from the RCC, which comes as no surprise to anyone that reads your posts.
.

Something I do not understand still is the continued accusation towards a group, and that's any group Christian, Catholic, Freemasonry and all the rest based on the actions of an extremely minimal number of members.

To bring child abuse into a discussion, for one in a place where it does not belong, and two for purely argumentitive value is, IMO, outrageous. The offence is a serious one whoever commits it and to use it as a mere argument point is close on disgusting.

If you want to rant and demise an organisation fine so be it, but rant about the organisation, not it's members and don't stoop so low as to use other peoples victimisation as an aid to your point.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist...I'm Catholic. It is forbidden by my church for it's members to join Freemasonry, and I'm learning about why. And it has been proven in this thread, that there are masons that are in fact anti-Catholic, with a hatred for the Catholic church.

Masons are not "anti-Catholic"...instead, Masons are opposed to many of the actions of the Catholic Church, i.e., its history of burning women and the elderly alive because of their religious beliefs, its intrusion and tyranny over the various secular states, its war against science and individual liberty, and its attempted cover-ups of crimes against children by its ecclesiastics.

As soon as the Church begins to hold itself as accountable as it holds everyone else, I'll be the first one to give it a pat on the back.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The Knights of Columbus are a seperate independant body from the church.

According to the Ontario State Council, Knights of Columbus, "There are only two requirements for a man to join the Knights of Columbus: that he be a practical Catholic as understood by the Church, and that he be 18 years of age or older."
How To Join The KofC

This fully contradicts your position that the KofC is an independent body seperate from the RCC, which comes as no surprise to anyone that reads your posts.
.

The Knights is independant of the church. Yes it is comprised of only Catholics, but it is not governed by ecclesiastical authorites. It does not report to the local bishop. It operates under it's own decrees. A religous order or Catholic lay organization often has to report to a Bishop. The Knights of Columbus DO NOT report, or are governed by a bishop. In that respect, they are an independant body. A fraternal order, comprised of Catholics.

I've been a Knight for 4 years now, and have attained the 4th degree. The Knights of Columbus is not a religous lay organization. As I state again, it does not report to the local bishop.

Your misunderstanding this.

If it comprises of only Catholics, although it doesn't report to any bishop, it must run according to the same rules as Catholics, ie a Bishop's.

Maybe I am seeing a little black and white, but the fact it doesn't report to something, doesn't mean it is run by it. I don't report to my government but it sure rules my life

Originally posted by chief_counsellor The Knights of Columbus is not a religous lay organization. As I state again, it does not report to the local bishop.

Your misunderstanding this.

It may not report directly to religious authority.
But, there are certainly close ties to local parishes, no? Both the KoC and DoI (daughters of isabella)? Masses they attend as a group, etc.
Wouldn't the priest, monsignor, bishop have some role in the chapter, perhaps as a chaplain? Just asking
Even if not regulated by the RCC, there seem to be some overlap.

Catholics that are Knights, should be living their faith as Catholics, but the church doesn't dictate where we spend our money, what functions we run, where and what we do. The Knights of Columbus operates as a Fraternal Order, made up of Catholics that are suppose to be living their faith.

The priests that are Chaplains of a council, are only in an advisory, or spiritual guidance position. They do not dictate the works of a council. The council is free to operate under the guidance of the council executive.

The Knights of Columbus is not controlled by the church or the Vatican. It is governed by a Supreme Council which takes care of the international scene, and State Councils that comprise a "state" or "province", further broken into districts, and then the individual councils. The Knights of Columbus has it's own form of "goverment" within it's body, has it's own "heirarchy" and operates independantly of the Roman Catholic Church. The Knights of Columbus Order adheres to it's own self government, as individual Catholic members, they individually ahdere to their faith.

The Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, priests, do not dictate what the Knights of Columbus do.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The Knights is independant of the church. Yes it is comprised of only Catholics, but...

You are consistently unwilling to take freemasons at their word, but you expect to be taken at your word.

Unbelievable...
.

Ok I am not getting a response so we will try another method:

....................... is a men's fraternal benefit society that was formed to render financial aid to members and their families. Mutual aid and assistance are offered to sick, disabled and needy members and their families. Social and intellectual fellowship is promoted among members and their families through educational, charitable, social welfare, war relief and public relief works.

I have omitted just a couple of wqords.

Which web site does this come from ?

Originally posted by billmcelligott
Ok I am not getting a response so we will try another method:

....................... is a men's fraternal benefit society that was formed to render financial aid to members and their families. Mutual aid and assistance are offered to sick, disabled and needy members and their families. Social and intellectual fellowship is promoted among members and their families through educational, charitable, social welfare, war relief and public relief works.

I have omitted just a couple of wqords.

Which web site does this come from ?

this comes from the Supreme Council website www.kofc.org...

CC

Bill, what did you talk to John Salza about? I guess you talked to him about the book he's putting out next year? Or maybe about what he writes about Freemasonry on his website?

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The Knights is independant of the church. Yes it is comprised of only Catholics, but...

You are consistently unwilling to take freemasons at their word, but you expect to be taken at your word.

Unbelievable...
.

You took one sentence out of context....did you even read the entire paragraph. I think we can end the discussion between you and I on this matter, because we will never come to any kind of mutual conclusion. How many times do I have to say Knights of Columbus is a Fraternal Order, not a lay religious community. Oh well, enough on this.