News gathering to be illegal under Patriot Act 2?!?!?

It seems finding stuff out for your self is a homeland security threat.. look here:

www.newstarget.com...


According Patriot Act II. Section 102 would make it illegal to "gather news headlines on the net" now what this means is anyones guess... any law experts out there?



[edit on 29/11/2004 by Corinthas]

Too bad it wasnt possible to get the actual text of the bill rather than summaries by someone else, as I think alot of us would like to read through and see what all is there. Its definately messed up to construe information gathering as some evil inte-grab for foreign intelligence, almost insinuating that the goverment would prefer domestic ignorance. If the actual legislation is anywhere near as vague as summarized here then we are all in very very deep crap.

I have dug up a draft of the Patriot act 2. This is some scary crap!

Let me quote something I found in the body of the draft.

17. "(1) Protection of rights. -- The exclusion of certain provisions of Federal law
18. from the definition of the term 'civil forfeiture statute' in section 983(i) shall not be
19. construed to deny an owner of property the right to contest the confiscation of assets
20. of suspected international terrorists under --
21. "(A) subsection (a) of this section;



1. "(B) the Constitution; or
2. "(C) subchapter II of chapter 5 of title 5, United States Code
3. (commonly known as the 'Administrative Procedure Act').
4. "(2) Savings clause. -- Nothing in this section shall limit or otherwise affect
5. any other remedies that may be available to an owner of property under section 983
6. or any other provision of law.".

Now, maybe it just me, but doesnt this basically say that if you dont own any property (land) , your rights mean squat?

Here is a link to the draft.

People, we need to wake up and see the reality that our rights are being eroded away before our eyes. If the Bush cabal has thier say in this, we wont have a choice at much of anything soon.


Edit: Removed link to the draft because it may endanger the ATS community. I didnt realize it was a confidential doc. Sorry. If you want the link, just U2U me.

[edit on 11/29/04 by Kidfinger]

Well if the members of the Senate (whatever house passed the act) weren't even allowed to read the first one... do you really think they'd let us look into this one?

it seems to me (from what i have read) that the PA 2 will make america a "police state", a badder country than it is now and will take away many rights...

my question is:

when will the PA 2 come into play???

I have been reading through the draft link I posted above, and I found something else that steps on our rights. All you have to do to have your privacy stripped away from you is make someone angry enough to call the FBI and lie about you. If you are reported as a terrorist, under P2, your house can be bugged, you can be followed, spied on, what ever the gov deems necassary. This isnt new. What is new about this is now, there is no warrent needed, and it can be done for up to 1 year without one.

Amerika, land of the money, home of the police state.

from the first link
Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001.

If this is true.. It's similar to something Hitler did in the 1930's to bypass the German parliament.

I though that the first patriot act was a temporary thing, and now they are bringing a second one?

What!!!! the first one was not good enough, and can the congress over rule the decision of passing something without reading it.

I don't get it, since when the congress has lost his power?

Is this something that is going to become an everyday thing with the present administration?

Originally posted by marg6043


I don't get it, since when the congress has lost his power?

As soon as the first patriot act was introduced. As stated abve, it is similar to the move that Hitler pulled to bypass German parliament.

Is this something that is going to become an everyday thing with the present administration?

Once the patriot act 2 is passed, they wont need to enact any more changes. The patriot act pretty much gives the Bush cabal free reign to do as they please.

What gets me is that its a Confidental document, meaning we arent supposed to be able to see it. I wonder if that would also apply after its passed, so that when federal agents refer to it simply as Patriot Act II nobody knows about it being passed or what it pertains to?

Originally posted by TheBandit795

If this is true.. It's similar to something Hitler did in the 1930's to bypass the German parliament.

Burning of the Reichstag = burning of the twin towers? I think so!

From encyclopedia Wikipedia

In Germany, like in the radically diminished Austria, the citizens, or at least the educated classes, remembered the pre-war years under autocratic rule as prosperous � the post-war years under democratic rule, however, as chaotic and economically disastrous. The popular support for democracy was limited, and often perceived as "foreign" or "alien" to the German nation. Social tensions after the world wide economic depression following the Wall Street Crash aggravated the political situation. Anti-democratic parties in the Reichstag (parliament), both left-wing and right-wing, obstructed the parliamentary work, why different cabinets resorted to governing by the special emergency powers of the Weimar constitution, which enabled the President and the Cabinet, in concert, to effectively bypass the parliament.

I have a feeling that this will be voted against, after seeing the questionable Civil Rights issues with the first PATRIOT act Im sure there are many senators who will scrutinize any revisions. Before anyone goes mouthing off about how all the Republicans supported the first bill, remember that there were Democrats who supported it as well.

But if PATRIOT act 2 is passed then there will be a lot of angry citizens, and it would be a call for us to become more involved in politics to make sure this never happened again.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by daeldren]

Originally posted by daeldren

But if PATRIOT act 2 is passed then there will be a lot of angry citizens, and it would be a call for us to become more involved in politics to make sure this never happened again.

If the Patriot act 2 is passed, we wont have a chance to make sure it never happens agian.

I have U2U'd a few mods and let them review the link I posted to the draft I mentioned above. I have been given the OK to post it. You can find it here on this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 11/29/04 by Kidfinger]

New gathering illegal!!!!!!!!!
holy crap, i'm going to be in some deep doodoo along with a whole lot of other people.

while the patriot act is extremely frightening, I am wondering how likely and possible is it for the government to enforce these actions against us? How will they find and prosecute millions of americans?

Is is a very scary thing, and the similarites to Reichstag and the ushering in of the Nazi rule are scary. I had the same epiphany a few years ago when i read the similarities of the whole ordeal. However, Hitler wanted to rule the world, we are just beginning the Fifth Crusade in my eyes to liberate and destory Muslim rule in the middle east. Maybe it is for our own protection.

However, this is also something that is bieng created so that All departments from the CIA to the smallest police force have the ability to move instead of waiting and to share information on subjects of interest. These laws were passed to give our protectors more power to protect us.

NOw, am I a little worried about my neighbor saying i have Middle eastern looking folk by my house nad I should be investigated. Well, I guess in order to prevent another 9/11 style attack, this is what must be done. Do I agree, no, but there is no other alternative. NOw, I am sure that organized crime and drug dealers alike are very worried about the phone taps and the extended reach that they will have when they have probable casue.

Probable cause is something that police use to pull you over and try to find drugs in your car if you did not put on a turn signal, or to find people who have active warrants or a suspended drivers license.

I will be honest, I have not gotten throught the entire article but I did get through section I.

This is also not something that has been bought about by the current 'regime', as some put it. THough is may seem scary, some of the measures applied by the first PAtriot Act I am sure have prevented at least 1 attack on ours or foriegn soil?

I ask, what is the price we should pay to go to fast food resturants, not wait in food lines, and drive SUV's and have our children safe in school.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
How will they find and prosecute millions of americans?

It is easy to track an IP address. You can get a general idea of where someone is just by doing a simple ping command. There are other ways that are a little more involved, but will yield the exact location of the offending persons computer. 80% of people online dont realize this, and they take no precautions as well. These people are left wide open to be found in a few hours.

There are commercial programs that I use at work that will allow me to enter your computer, wheter you know it or not, just as the SysAdmin at your work would.

I could browse your docs, pics, anything that is on your pc. THe average pc owner knows nothing more than how to log onto AOL and make their internet posts, thinking that they are anonymous. It is easy to track someone who is NOT covering their tracks, but everyone in the digital world can be traced.

just though all would like a link to the act itself.

www.pbs.org...

Now that we can see what it says, we can properly debate it.

Originally posted by esdad71
However, Hitler wanted to rule the world, we are just beginning the Fifth Crusade in my eyes to liberate and destory Muslim rule in the middle east. Maybe it is for our own protection.

Protection from what? Are you sure that's the goal, or is that just something Bush said? Hitler's stated goals were many, none of which was "rule the world", at least not until it was too late. Hitler used many groups (like the Jews) that he blamed all the country's problems on, and said they are a threat and must be eliminated, which means he needs the "powers" to do it. He used terrorism as a pretext just as we do now. No one dared question him and ask for proof and evidence - they just assumed he wanted what's "best" for the people, to protect the people, so they believed him and let him do what he said "needed to be done". Well, you know what happened then.

So I ask, would you repeat the same mistake and just assume the government wants "what's best for you", or in your own words, "to protect us"? Of course, what better way to protect us than to have total control over us? Then sure we can be "protected", but who's going to protect us from our own governments?

However, this is also something that is bieng created so that All departments from the CIA to the smallest police force have the ability to move instead of waiting and to share information on subjects of interest. These laws were passed to give our protectors more power to protect us.

Yes, and give those who want to rule and control us more power to rule and control us. It works both ways. What these laws are doing, is simply giving power to our government agencies. The question is, are they going to use these powers just to protect us? Or will they use them to benefit themselves, and manipulate us? So far, throughout history and the present events, it has been a LOT of abuse/manipulation/lies, and very little actual "protection", especially if the enemy is contrived and imaginary to begin with. The boogie-man will get ya, so we need to set up an electric fence in your room at night! It's for your own good! Honest!

Now, am I a little worried about my neighbor saying i have Middle eastern looking folk by my house nad I should be investigated. Well, I guess in order to prevent another 9/11 style attack, this is what must be done.

Who says? What makes you think that 911 wasn't done BY our own government? And what makes you think that there even IS a threat that we need to be protected from? Or do you not ask those questions, but just assume that what the government says is right, because "they wouldn't lie to us" would they? Of course, you'd then have to forget that most things they ever say are blatant lies, which are proven to be lies many times over. So why would one assume that they wouldn't lie about something big like the whole terrorist threat, or that they wouldn't attack their own country to incite fear in everyone and have them support any illegal wars and clamp downs on our own freedoms that the government wants to do?

Do I agree, no, but there is no other alternative.

There are always alternatives. But the irony here is, there is no actual threat, it's all a lie, so by creating an enemy and then pretending to fight it, it may appear that we're in big danger and in need of "protection", but are we? And even if there are terrorists (which I know there are, just not nearly as many and so powerful and so aimless as we're told), do we really need such "measures" to be protected?

And once again, what if the government ARE the terrorists, and basically use these same measures that give them more power to control us, and do what Hitler basically did? What makes you think they won't? And if they can, why would you not ask them for PROOF of their claims instead of just assuming that they will act in your best interest?

NOw, I am sure that organized crime and drug dealers alike are very worried about the phone taps and the extended reach that they will have when they have probable casue.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

-Pastor Martin Niem�ller

I ask, what is the price we should pay to go to fast food resturants, not wait in food lines, and drive SUV's and have our children safe in school.

WHO do you think poses a threat to your children? And what makes you think that? Now, of course, no one in this world is ever really "safe", because anything can happen at any time to cause sudden death, as people are fragile things, and there is always someone who is willing to kill someone else, etc. But how is this different from the way it has always been? What changed?