The Reason why The Bible says Hellfire is a Fabrication of The Truth.

deeezbeats
Not sure of exactly what was changed during Constantines rules, mind telling me.

Start your search with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, read some of his works to understand.

You also get the apocryphal books thrown in to support the doctrine of the church, text that do not have the same historical strength of the rest of the bible.

It is why a Catholic bible is different than a protestants one.

However, I am a bit concerned that you are trying to expound an op on Annihilation yet lack the knowledge that I just said...

benrl

deeezbeats
Not sure of exactly what was changed during Constantines rules, mind telling me.

Start your search with Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation, read some of his works to understand.

You also get the apocryphal books thrown in to support the doctrine of the church, text that do not have the same historical strength of the rest of the bible.

It is why a Catholic bible is different than a protestants one.

However, I am a bit concerned that you are trying to expound an op on Annihilation yet lack the knowledge that I just said...

edit on 26-3-2014 by benrl because: (no reason given)

I was never much a fan of church history. I spend more time reading my bible and using that as my basic for facts. I never set time apart to learn about it since I think it's somewhat pointless. Just like a catholic/orthodox I was talking to. Would never accept the facts I present because if the early/current Catholic church fathers didn't verify it, then it most likely wasn't true. Wouldnt even Admit Hell is the grave.

The Underworld of Hades is a real place, a place of power and mythic hero gods. It is Geburah in the Sephiroth. Ruled by the Planet Mars. Have no fear, the meek may inherit the earth but only the brave enter the fields of Elusis.

What about the damnation?

StallionDuck
reply to post by Akragon

 

Consider further that... only those that died as children, and 144k people since the beginning of time have access to heaven while everyone else perishes. From what I see, no one alive today seems to be able to look at what's written in the bible and can say "I have done all of these things that has been commanded in the bible for me to be gain access to heaven".

If all of the bible is to be believed, we are all doom and no one has access to heaven, no matter what, simply because the rules are so much so that no person has been able to get through without blemish.

We're supposed to not stand against our government one bit! Imagine that... If any person has ever disagreed with their government... well, let's just say everyone here would have a really hard time getting into heaven. We are supposed to accept life the way it is without any question or stance.


I have hope, but it's not looking good for the home team. I can only hope that the alternative to everlasting life in heaven is total annialation. Id hate to think I deserve to be burned for all eternity and suffer every moment of pain till the end of times. Though, I've been raised to believe you get one or the other. Suffer or pleasure.

edit on 26-3-2014 by StallionDuck because: (no reason given)

. "No person alive with access to heaven?",? Speak for thyself John Alden.

I want to openly ask a question, it's rhetorical because I'm reaching out to all the minds trapped by modern religions;

Would an All-Loving and all knowing Creator want it's creations to fear and beg for mercy at her judgement? Fear not because you are going to be embraced by your creator regardless of what you have created

Much love to you all

Akragon
reply to post by StallionDuck

 

Can I assume you're a Jehovah's witness?

This idea that only 144k people will gain access to heaven is ridiculous...

Similar to most... IF not all of the book the idea came from

You can assume all you want, but you'll be wrong.

I have no religion. If I HAD to subscribe to one based on how I was raised, I'd say Catholic, but I just have beliefs based upon the bible in general.

I'm just going off of revelations. I don't know the bible through and through and there are others here that are more scholarful than I. So I say this. I believe all that the bible says. Yes... even the 6 day creation because I believe that faith is a huge part of it... But I also believe I am no closer to heaven than anyone else because I beleive I fall short... Extreemly short. It's not that I believe I'm evil. It's just that I believe I have been unable to adhere to the rules that is in the bible and I break them often. It's a catch 22 if you will. I beleive fully, but I am not strong enough to stick to the rules. So I just rely on faith and see if that can do anything for me and I try to be a good person.

Don't worry... People here can tell me that "it's all about how you are" all they want, but I wont believe that. Sorry. I don't believe in watering down something and calling myself a part of that which I water down. That doesn't make sense to me. Like saying you believe in the same God that that has been worshipped since time began by the Jews and Christians, but only take parts of the bible (after all... isn't that were we know about the religion from?) as true.

I simply don't can't make the grade. So it'll be what it'll be.

reply to post by deeezbeats


It says they'll be rezurected. Not saved. Rezed and judged for life or 2nd death.

reply to post by HUMBLEONE


Don't chop my response. Use all of it and it'll make more sense.

From what I see, no one alive today seems to be able to look at what's written in the bible and can say "I have done all of these things that has been commanded in the bible for me to be gain access to heaven".

HUMBLEONE
What about the damnation?

When people say damnation, they think literal hellfire. Damnation is the same thing as condemnation. This punishment being eternal death.

StallionDuck
reply to post by deeezbeats

 

It says they'll be rezurected. Not saved. Rezed and judged for life or 2nd death.

Well Paul wouldnt have had hope if he expected them to just be destroyed anyways.

Akragon
reply to post by StallionDuck

 

Can I assume you're a Jehovah's witness?

This idea that only 144k people will gain access to heaven is ridiculous...

Similar to most... IF not all of the book the idea came from

I agree. If the 144000 are what I think they are, then they are agents/prophets of god somewhat similar to Noah. Sent to do a job.

reply to post by deeezbeats

Can't be a christian and say lake of fire doesnt exist.

The words exist in Revelation, you don't have to believe in anything to realize that.
But is it metaphor, like everything else in that particular book of the New Testament?
I think that you should consider that, then try to see what the point was behind the imagery.
What understanding were you supposed to take away from it?

I think the 144,000 are people who are meant to go through the Trib. I think they are sealed against being harmed so that they will survive at least until an appointed time if not Christ's 2nd return. I think their mission is to minister and preach to those left behind or to the believers remaining and being persecuted.

The two prophets are specific people who are very obvious, but the 144,000 are much less so, but with a no less important mission on earth.

But that's just my personal feeling.

As for the Lake of Fire, I've heard a few things. I've heard that all who are dead are sleeping and will not rise to their reward until He comes with a shout which is when the Rapture happens and it may or may not involve the living believers as well. This is based on the verses that talk about the dead in Christ rising first and others that refer to death as sleep and the dead knowing nothing. Then, at the end, all are judged according to what they have earned with the saved going on to eternal life and the others going into the Lake to be destroyed which implies they don't suffer eternally. Of course, they may take a long time to be destroyed ... God's days are not our days.

But it would ironic is those who deny Him basically get exactly what they claim they want - nothing, obliteration - right after they catch a glimpse of the alterative.

jmdewey60
reply to post by deeezbeats

 

Can't be a christian and say lake of fire doesnt exist.

The words exist in Revelation, you don't have to believe in anything to realize that.
But is it metaphor, like everything else in that particular book of the New Testament?
I think that you should consider that, then try to see what the point was behind the imagery.
What understanding were you supposed to take away from it?

edit on 26-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Yes it is a metaphor.

deeezbeats

I was never much a fan of church history. I spend more time reading my bible and using that as my basic for facts. I never set time apart to learn about it since I think it's somewhat pointless. Just like a catholic/orthodox I was talking to. Would never accept the facts I present because if the early/current Catholic church fathers didn't verify it, then it most likely wasn't true. Wouldnt even Admit Hell is the grave.

edit on 26-3-2014 by deeezbeats because: (no reason given)

Heres the thing, I believe if you read just the bible, with no outside influence, the end result would look nothing like a modern church.

Thats my opinion, I feel, that all the doctrinal schisms that happen are due to PRIDE and Hubris of the members who can't be humble and reason with another person of differing opinions.

So if you don't want to be those people, it behooves all christians that want to call themselves that to study, mostly the Word, but also the historys.

Having a perspective of where hearsies originate or weather its even truly heretical is a good tool to have in your belt, not to debate, not so you can argue.

So that you can know what you believe, you tried to understand better.

Thats all.

Move from the milk, and start getting to the deeper meat of theology.

Even a little understanding of the history of the Jewish religion can help further any christian who wants to know more about their faith.

benrl

deeezbeats

I was never much a fan of church history. I spend more time reading my bible and using that as my basic for facts. I never set time apart to learn about it since I think it's somewhat pointless. Just like a catholic/orthodox I was talking to. Would never accept the facts I present because if the early/current Catholic church fathers didn't verify it, then it most likely wasn't true. Wouldnt even Admit Hell is the grave.

edit on 26-3-2014 by deeezbeats because: (no reason given)

Heres the thing, I believe if you read just the bible, with no outside influence, the end result would look nothing like a modern church.

Thats my opinion, I feel, that all the doctrinal schisms that happen are due to PRIDE and Hubris of the members who can't be humble and reason with another person of differing opinions.

So if you don't want to be those people, it behooves all christians that want to call themselves that to study, mostly the Word, but also the historys.

Having a perspective of where hearsies originate or weather its even truly heretical is a good tool to have in your belt, not to debate, not so you can argue.

So that you can know what you believe, you tried to understand better.

Thats all.

Move from the milk, and start getting to the deeper meat of theology.

Even a little understanding of the history of the Jewish religion can help further any christian who wants to know more about their faith.

I have a somewhat different approach. First, look at different opinions of what people say "google ect." then look for the answers and whichever holds more biblical grounding. I'm familiar with only some heresy history like the trinity. but that's all that seems to be of importance. And when I debate, I make sure to stay on topic so whoever has more proof has more proof. Many people/Modern Churches have a blandish/fraile approach to biblical interpretation. I make sure I don't.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't agree that everything or even most of everything in Revelation is metaphor. It's supposed to be somewhat easy to understand with the help of Daniel and the rest of the Bible. That's why it's called "Revelation"

reply to post by graphuto

That's why it's called "Revelation"

It's like drawing back the curtain to see the spiritual reasons for what we see playing out on earth.
"Spiritual" being non-physical but with it being given with visions, which are moving pictures that the human mind can contemplate to get spiritual principles.
Those pictures of physical things should not be taken as the actual spiritual principles themselves, but a tool to a deeper understanding.

@op... The Israelite religion teaches that everybody who dies remains in a state of death until the resurrection after which they will be either rewarded or punished. (See the very last verse in Daniel.) The scripture verses you quoted in the op about ''the dead'' are referring to this intermediate stage between life and the afterlife. Those verses are not disproving hell in any way.