Jesus predicted his own crucifiction?

In Matthew 16:24 Jesus says something very puzzeling:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

But stop just a minute... The cross? Why mention the cross? Jesus had not been betraid by Judas yet so how could he know about the cross?

Matthew 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27 also mention the same passage.

Did Jesus predict his own death or does this mean that these passages were written after the fact?

-MM

Well seeing as Crucifixion was a punishment of the time, it could be said that he was saying take your Conviction and Follow me.

Risk death and follow, sort of thing, or its foreshadowing.

Some argue that its a point added after the fact, that its an obvious addition to the text, creative license by the writer.

OR it could be foreshadowing, and or a term to implying following convictions to death.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Jesus knew who he was and what he was on Earth to do, that's kind of sort of what makes him Jesus bro. LOL

I'm going to take it a step further and add that even the demons knew who Jesus was and even his mission, Matthew 8:28-34 clearly shows this. I believe the entire spiritual world knows and has known the entire fate of the Earth, it's just us here that don't fully understand.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


He spoke many times of His death.

He absolutely knew the specifics well beforehand.

Think about what John the baptist said about Jesus at the start of Jesus ministry:

"Behold! The lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world".

A lamb that takes away sin is a sacrifical lamb according to Jewish law & tradition.

Normally, a sacraficial lamb only takes away the sin of the one who supplies the lamb. But Jesus is the "Lamb of God". He also "takes away the sins of the world".

He was aware of the purpose of His mission as were several others close to Him.

It's easy to predict your death, especially when you keep telling everyone that you need to fulfill the prophesy and be crucified. He talked everyone into the situation is what I read.

I still do not think Jesus actually got crucified, someone else took his place.

reply to post by rickymouse


Its a story full of missing links, maybe there were many Jesuseses have you thought about that. Being a true son of God anything is possible, so where does that leave us. Looking at the message is the answer for me.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


The word is "Stake" not cross... and that was the way the romans executed people in that day

IF he knew he was to die, he could likely assume he would be hung on a stake...

The Pharisee's were buddy buddy with the romans...

I think the assumption he made was obvious

Akragon
reply to post by MerkabaMeditation

 

The word is "Stake" not cross... and that was the way the romans executed people in that day

IF he knew he was to die, he could likely assume he would be hung on a stake...

The Pharisee's were buddy buddy with the romans...

I think the assumption he made was obvious

Stake is arguing semantics in general, Crucifixion was the punishment, done on a stake.

I feel the cross is a Purposeful misdirection to cause arguments in general.

Either way, arguing he made the logical leap like you say, is perhaps the simplest counter to the "how could he know" argument.

As he was constantly saying things the disciples where like "oooooh thats what he meant"

Akragon
reply to post by MerkabaMeditation

 

The word is "Stake" not cross... and that was the way the romans executed people in that day

IF he knew he was to die, he could likely assume he would be hung on a stake...

The Pharisee's were buddy buddy with the romans...

I think the assumption he made was obvious

I've checked the greek original text and they use the greek word σταυρόν (stauron) which literally means an upright stake, esp. a pointed one, or a cross.

-MM

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Correct... except there is no evidence of a cross being used...

Nothing In the bible says there was a cross bar...

And in fact, the evidence we do have points to a stake, not a cross...

Look up the heal of the crucified man...

The Cross is a pagan symbol that was assimilated into Christianity...

he was Nailed to a stake, hands above his head...

rickymouse
It's easy to predict your death, especially when you keep telling everyone that you need to fulfill the prophesy and be crucified. He talked everyone into the situation is what I read.

I still do not think Jesus actually got crucified, someone else took his place.

And the point of that would be... ?

It sort of nullifies everything if everything Christ was about; if He were a manipulating, cowardly, liar.

In Jesus case, the message and the messenger are inextricably linked, you can't have one without the other.

Akragon
reply to post by MerkabaMeditation

 

Correct... except there is no evidence of a cross being used...

Nothing In the bible says there was a cross bar...

And in fact, the evidence we do have points to a stake, not a cross...

Look up the heal of the crucified man...

The Cross is a pagan symbol that was assimilated into Christianity...

he was Nailed to a stake, hands above his head...

I often find it funny, that all the sticking points many have with Christians, where adopted and added MOSTLY through adaption into the state religion of rome.


Cross, Easter, Christmas,

Celibate Priestess and Priest, Nuns and Priest,

Annihilation becomes eternal torment,

Theres many more.

Akragon
reply to post by MerkabaMeditation

 

Correct... except there is no evidence of a cross being used...

Nothing In the bible says there was a cross bar...

And in fact, the evidence we do have points to a stake, not a cross...

Look up the heal of the crucified man...

The Cross is a pagan symbol that was assimilated into Christianity...

he was Nailed to a stake, hands above his head...

The New Testament writings about the crucifixion of Jesus do not speak specifically about the shape of that cross, but the early writings that do speak of its shape, from about the year 100 AD on, describe it as shaped like the letter T (the Greek letter tau) or as composed of an upright and a transverse beam, sometimes with a small projection in the upright.

Link

I have no doubt that Jesus knew His mission and that it would end in his death.
So sure, He probably did predict His death to those He knew. Its not a surprise.

TiedDestructor

Akragon
reply to post by MerkabaMeditation

 

Correct... except there is no evidence of a cross being used...

Nothing In the bible says there was a cross bar...

And in fact, the evidence we do have points to a stake, not a cross...

Look up the heal of the crucified man...

The Cross is a pagan symbol that was assimilated into Christianity...

he was Nailed to a stake, hands above his head...

The New Testament writings about the crucifixion of Jesus do not speak specifically about the shape of that cross, but the early writings that do speak of its shape, from about the year 100 AD on, describe it as shaped like the letter T (the Greek letter tau) or as composed of an upright and a transverse beam, sometimes with a small projection in the upright.

Link

Again... It was not a cross, and there was mention of the shape of what Jesus was nailed to... stauros which is a stake...

Cross is derived from a latin word...

there is no mention of a cross bar in any of the gospels... and Christianity is famous for assimilating Pagan symbolism

One of the Few things I actually agree with in the JW version of Christianity

reply to post by Akragon


No, Stauros *also* means Cross (Source) - it does not *just* mean a stake. We're not talking about Latin here which uses the word "Crux" for cross.

It is wrong saying that the word "Cross" was never mentioned in The New Testament when the greek dictionaries says that Stauros can mean *both* a cross and a stake.

If you would like to discuss the etymology of the greek word "Stauros" then saying it comes from Latin is certainly faulty as Latin was created about 2,500 years later than the greek language. Latin was in fact based on the greek alphabeth, it would thusly be implossible for Latin to be the origin of *any* greek word.

-MM

What did Simon carry for Jesus? A cross bar I would imagine?

MerkabaMeditation
reply to post by Akragon

 

No, Stauros *also* means Cross (Source) - it does not *just* mean a stake. We're not talking about Latin here which uses the word "Crux" for cross.

It is wrong saying that the word "Cross" was never mentioned when the greek dictionaries says that Stauros can mean *both* a cross and a stake.

If you would like to discuss the etymology of the greek word "Stauros" then saying it comes from Latin is certainly faulty as Latin was created about 2,500 years later than the greek language. Latin was in fact based on the greek alphabeth, it would thusly be implossible for Latin to be the origin of *any* greek word.

-MM

edit on 23-3-2014 by MerkabaMeditation because: (no reason given)

Well we can argue back and forth on the issue all day and night...

the fact remains, there is no mention of a cross beem being used in any of the gospels... so one can "assume" there was a cross beam... or just take the word for what it actually says... a stake

In Homeric and classical Greek, until the early 4th century BC, stauros meant an upright stake, pole,[5][6] or piece of paling, "on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground."[7]

In the literature of that time it never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always one piece alone.[

Anglican theologian E. W. Bullinger, in The Companion Bible (which was completed and published in 1922,[3] nine years after his 1913 death), was emphatic in his belief that stauros never meant two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, "but always of one piece alone ... There is nothing [of the word stauros] in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber." Bullinger wrote that in the catacombs of Rome Christ was never represented there as "hanging on a cross" and that the cross was a pagan symbol of life (the ankh) in Egyptian churches that was borrowed by the Christians. He cited a letter from English Dean John William Burgon, who questioned whether a cross occurred on any Christian monument of the first four centuries and wrote: "The 'invention' of it in pre-Christian times, and the 'invention' of its use in later times, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed in any manner

TiedDestructor
What did Simon carry for Jesus? A cross bar I would imagine?

that depends on which version you read...

John says he carried it alone... no mention of simon


John 19
"They took Jesus therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to the place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha."

reply to post by Akragon


That is new to me but interesting nonetheless, thanks.

-MM