If you don't believe all the bible, why believe any of it?

Goteborg
"If you don't believe all the bible, why believe any of it?"

The quick and simple response to this question is that literal belief is not required. I don't understand the focus on the bible because there are some things you must believe in order to be a Christian but literal belief in the bible is not one of those things.

ArtemisE This is for those Christians who don't believe in the literal truth of creation and the bible. But do believe and concierge them selves Christians.

I'm not a Christian and never will be, when I was younger I pretended to be one under duress, but I'm going to answer anyway.

ArtemisE How do you decide what to believe and what not to?

It's a personal matter in some cases. There are plenty of stories in the bible where the author has clearly taken literary license to paint a stark picture in order to set up a lesson. Those instances are obviously not meant to be taken literally and doing so would be a mistake and entirely miss the point the author was trying to make.

ArtemisETo an atheist it looks like cherry picking what people wish were true. While ignoring the things you don't agree with.

Atheists themselves are guilty of the same thing some of them accuse Christians of, holding a belief that can't be proven. How do you prove something doesn't exist? When I have seen Atheists bait Christians I see a lot of cherry-picking, the Atheists pick things out of the bible which obviously aren't meant to be taken literally and then bait the Christian by asking the Christian to defend against whatever the Atheist cherry-picked out of the bible with no regard given as to whether or not the Christian holds a literal belief of whatever he has been asked to defend. Or the Atheist pulls some horrific practice out of the Old Testament and asks the Christian to defend the practice which entirely misses the point of Christianity. Atheists cherry-pick quite a bit and they're also expert carpenters, they can construct a straw man in no time flat.

ArtemisE It seems to me that almost every Christian as a nearly completely different take on what all consider to absolute truth. Logically how can any truth be found when no one even agrees on the fundamentals?

True and they're allowed to. This phenomenon is not limited to the bible. My favorite book is called "The Art Of War", it is a very old, very short book about strategy. Over the last 30 years I have read this book at least 100 times and every time I read it I take something new away from it and see the book in a different way. The bible is no different, nor is any other written work which requires interpretation but the difference is that no one takes people to task for their interpretation of "The Art Of War".

It's funny, Atheists think they're the opposite of Christians but from where I'm standing I don't see much of a difference between the two when it comes to their thought processes. One group calling the other out is humorous to me because I see them as two sides of the same coin.

very nice post.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by SpaceGoatFarts

 

Meh, the only thing I find of use from the bible is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Other than that it is either rewordings of that concept, boneheaded laws of ancient peoples, a miracle, god destroying large swaths of people for petty reasons, or vague prophesy that can be attributed to many things due to its vagueness. I guess you could also study it for literary techniques, but that is less to do with content and more to do with how it is written down.

i get the feeling from you that everyone got along famously back in the day, except when God jumped in.

the Israelites were the war mongers of the world or something because God told them to do it.

prophesy and miracles are not only found in the past and laws of man do change.

reply to post by randyvs


Yet Jesus talks about the flood, you just made my point, and confirmed what the OP is saying.

Blue_Jay33
and somehow ignore that the prophesies in the OT prove that Jesus is the Messiah

A book never proved anything. Furthermore the number of Jews who claimed to be the messiah over the years is almost an endless list. Jesus is just one name on that list.

If Jesus was indeed the Moshiach of the Jews, you would expect them to at least acknowledge that fact.

There's is absolutely no need for Jesus to be the Moshiach to make his teachings relevant even to this day.

Hence the debate regarding whether the Bible is historically accurate or whether Jesus is the awaited messiah is sterile from an intellectual perspective. It's just in the domain of personal beliefs and Christians will NEVER be able to prove the divinity of Christ (and it doesn't matter anyway) to the world. And that's coming from a Christian.

So why not focusing on what really matters in the Bible, like the spiritual teachings for example, and stop claiming the Bible is the only valid book that ever existed regarding these kind of teachings? Because it's not the case.

I respect deeply all Christians who make their mission not to convince others they are right, but simply to live by the values and principles they cherish, without hoping anything in return but the satisfaction to be doing the right thing. But when they can't help to debate the "veracity" of the Bible or why only their opinion is correct, they aren't really Christians anymore, just guilty of theological masturbation.

reply to post by SpaceGoatFarts


yeah, thanks from all christians.

what do U live by?

tsingtao

what do U live by?

What my heart tries to tell me when I'm at peace and feeling connected to the divine.

tsingtao
religion didn't start all that suffering, man did. don't make me laugh.

Regardless of who started what, religion has been with us a LOT longer than most legitimate science. You made a point about how science hasn't fixed all these problems. Well what about religion, it's ENTIRE mission is to spread peace and goodwill, yet not only have these things continued, religion has been responsible for expanding or propagating them. So don't lay failings at science's feet when religion is no better. At least through science we can grow to understand these problems better and what causes them, thereby learning how to retard them or get rid of them altogether.

just like science, the bible is.
dogged pursuit of truth. unless someone comes up with something else, that is. which doesn't really happen with the bible.

Lol the bible isn't the dogged pursuit of truth, it just claims to be the truth, all evidence to the contrary be damned. We HAVE come up with something else by the way, it is called science. It DOES lat evidence that contradicts it, change its stances. I'd say that is a better path to the truth than something that isn't willing to change its stance despite overwhelming evidence disproving it.

and who says i reject science? i am a chef of 40yrs, i deal in chemistry and anatomy and logistics and math on a daily basis. throw in a healthy dose of psychology too.

Fantastic, good for you. But I am going off of what YOU are saying. You keep calling science, "your science" like it isn't your science as well or something. I'm just inferring through what you write. If that isn't what you meant, then be more clear with your typing.

i am also a musician, have my and wife's name on a chip on mars, hard sci-fi fan too, since i was able to read.
i get more tv channels than i did as a kid, tho. lol!

OK and? Being a sci-fi fan just says that you are used to hearing techno-babble, it doesn't mean you understand it (in sci-fi's case, then process that most of it is nonsense), or can apply it properly. Also, being good at one science, doesn't automatically make you an expert or good at another science. All require equal amount of studying to understand and form opinions on. I don't really like Biology much so I don't form opinions on the legitimacy of Cell Theory, it's just out of my knowledge base. I HAVE studied quite a bit of evolutionary theory though. Obviously since I don't study much Biology, I can't comment on all of it. But I am aware that the parts that I haven't studied line up with the parts that have.

science is only about discovering how awesome our universe is that was created for us and any other life, that is in it.
i still want my flying car. been waiting forever, btw.

That statement comes with an assumption so it isn't true. Science is about discovering how awesome our universe is. Period. Leave that last part off, we don't know that for sure or not.

tsingtao

Krazysh0t
reply to post by SpaceGoatFarts

 

Meh, the only thing I find of use from the bible is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Other than that it is either rewordings of that concept, boneheaded laws of ancient peoples, a miracle, god destroying large swaths of people for petty reasons, or vague prophesy that can be attributed to many things due to its vagueness. I guess you could also study it for literary techniques, but that is less to do with content and more to do with how it is written down.

i get the feeling from you that everyone got along famously back in the day, except when God jumped in.

the Israelites were the war mongers of the world or something because God told them to do it.

prophesy and miracles are not only found in the past and laws of man do change.

Don't be silly, religion has been with us since civilization started. I'm not just condemning the Abrahamic religions here. And being religion, it has a tendency to tell others that THEIR religion is more correct than the other's religion.

Yes prophecy and miracles ARE found in the past, now point out where any of them came true or are true.

reply to post by SpaceGoatFarts


Nope, you are just wrong, sorry.

Jesus IS the promised messiah & Christ, all the others were false, they have no Christian followers either, because a false messiah can't keep his followers going beyond a few generations.

So either you understand Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20 or you just don't agree with Jesus himself.
And that's ok, but twisting the perspective of what YOU personally think Christianity should be in the 21st century, is just one opinion and not the truth of reality.

Sorry but I have to call you out on such blatant falsehoods.

Blue_Jay33
Jesus IS the promised messiah & Christ, all the others were false

That's your opinion but I have no problem with that.

I just wonder how Jesus could be the Moshiach of the Old Testament if Jews themselves don't recognize him so?

Does it means Jews are wrong and Christians are correct?

Are we back to square one "my religion is the only correct one the others have it wrong" ?

SpaceGoatFartsThat's your opinion but I have no problem with that.

I just wonder how Jesus could be the Moshiach of the Old Testament if Jews themselves don't recognize him so?

Does it means Jews are wrong and Christians are correct?

If you're a Christian that's exactly what this means, you can't not believe this and be a Christian. That's one of those beliefs that is non-negotiable.

SpaceGoatFartsAre we back to square one "my religion is the only correct one the others have it wrong" ?

Let's face it, most of humanity has never left square one and that has caused massive problems throughout our history.

reply to post by SpaceGoatFarts


That is true most Jews rejected Jesus, but the very first converts were all Jewish not gentiles, it went that way until that Roman officer converted in 36 AD. It was the Jewish clergy that rejected Jesus and tried to led the people astray. After 70 AD with he destruction of the temple the Jews would be looking for a Messiah again, to help them reestablish a country. Interestingly what the Messiah was to achieve for the Jews has largely been accomplished without him, from there perspective.

Think about it, from being destroyed as a country and persecuted by the world power of the day in the 1st century to the 21st century having there own country, and a very strong military and being supported by a world power. The reason for needing a messiah is largely gone from the Jewish perspective. Try and talk to Jew about the promised Messiah now, most won't or don't care. And there would be no way to prove it via linage as all the records were destroyed.

Yet this was a huge part of the OT, but it is largely ignored but almost all Jews today. Yet some still convert when they really study with an open mind the over 300 prophesies of the OT leading to the Christ.

Blue_Jay33
reply to post by randyvs

 

Yet Jesus talks about the flood, you just made my point, and confirmed what the OP is saying.

You thought I wouldn't?

After giving the long and short of it, its hard to keep skirting around issues. Its childish, to think in terms of accepting of whole packages and not to use discernment on all issues. To be so lazy you want these perfect little packages handed to you, and you don't use your mind/spirit/heart or inner wisdom or love, you just accept the package. People do this with politics too, instead of organizing citizen counsels and solving problems, stepping up to the plate, or even just seeing through it all.

Thats the world is the way it is, because people aren't doing their bit. Too childish and lazy, perhaps for some they are too selfish to want to spend time on issues.

Because its not straight forward and has alot of flaws, people think there isn't truth in it? The whole world is like this. Everything is like this, you have to dig for the jewels.

reply to post by Unity_99


Someday your reciprocating wisdom is going to fail as per my
preference.

But not today.

Unity_99
After giving the long and short of it, its hard to keep skirting around issues. Its childish, to think in terms of accepting of whole packages and not to use discernment on all issues.

The worse thing is that so many Christian always only think in terms of their own Church and creed.

There are so many different Christian traditions, so many creeds, so many many modern offshoots of a single original root, and yet all these people, despite being all fruits of the same tree, won't recognize the fact that the other traditions might be as valid as theirs.

When talking to a Christian you should always ask him to precise which Church he belongs to so you would know better what to expect from him.

To me? It doesn't matter if you claim to be a Catholic or a Lutherian or a Mormon as long as you don't pretend only your little perspective on the whole thing is the one that matters.

edit:

What I'm basically trying to say is that what I consider to be a Christian is someone that follows the teachings of Christ. And that's it. If you start arguing that someone isn't a "true" Christian because he doesn't fully recognize the divinity of Christ, sorry to be blunt but it's just plain stupid.

The only thing that should matter for a Christian is "do you follow the teachings of Christ, Y/N?". The rest is background noise.

I always found the morbid fascination some American Christians have with prophecies to be quite unhealthy for example. Being a Christian has nothing to do (IMHO) with debating whether Obama is the Antichrist or the Rapture is near. That's borderline insanity.

First you said this:

SpaceGoatFarts
There are so many different Christian traditions, so many creeds, so many many modern offshoots of a single original root, and yet all these people, despite being all fruits of the same tree, won't recognize the fact that the other traditions might be as valid as theirs..


..To me? It doesn't matter if you claim to be a Catholic or a Lutherian or a Mormon as long as you don't pretend only your little perspective on the whole thing is the one that matters.

Then you said this:

SpaceGoatFarts
What I'm basically trying to say is that what I consider to be a Christian is someone that follows the teachings of Christ. And that's it. If you start arguing that someone isn't a "true" Christian because he doesn't fully recognize the divinity of Christ, sorry to be blunt but it's just plain stupid.

The only thing that should matter for a Christian is "do you follow the teachings of Christ, Y/N?". The rest is background noise.

So as I read this, you are so eager for everyone to accept other people's views as valid that you choose to call yourself a Christian while at the same time referring to their number one belief, the divinity of Jesus, as "plain stupid" and "background noise"? Yep, you've just gotta love what passes today for the acceptance of and belief in the validity of the views of others.

Goteborg
you choose to call yourself a Christian while at the same time referring to their number one belief, the divinity of Jesus, as "plain stupid" and "background noise"?

I invite you to read my post again and carefully.

What I say is "plain stupid" is refusing someone the denomination of Christian based on Christological considerations only.

The divinity of Christ isn't the only Christian view around. Actually the Apostle's creed makes no clear mention of it.



You don't have to agree with me but the only thing that should matter to a Christian is "Do I act as Jesus wished I act?" Yes, the rest is background noise in regard to that question. Does Jesus care if you participate in the Eucharist or not? Does he care if you consider him human or divine? Or does he care how you treat your fellows and yourself. Would Jesus prefer "theologically correct" followers, or simply people trying to live how he lived?

I'll let you chose what is the most important to you, and even though I don't agree with you doesn't mean I can't accept it.

In the end I have no problem calling you Christian, it's more like you who wants to deny me that name.

reply to post by tsingtao


The art of war is the most profound book I've ever read as well!!


Very well thought out post, but I think you missed the point a little. Tho OP is mainly asking " how could you ever know what is metaphor and what isn't. Your point seemed to be " oh you can tell what's true and what's metaphor",I gotta disagree.

Look at the creation story. Got created the world in 7 days. That's very specific. It doesn't say god created the world in 7, 24 hour blocks. It said days. That's one trip around the sun. That should be a " universal" concept that doesn't change weather from gods POV or mans. The people who say " but one day to him is a thousand years to us" , I don't see the reaching to make that fit. A day on earth hasn't changed even close to that much.

I don't think atheists cherry pick. There's just some part science has disproven, so we point out the inconsistencies.

The parts science has disproven:

Creation story

Biblical version of the flood myth

The existance of hell

So of course these are the things athiest latch on too. The rest hasn't been disproven, so how could they use the rest as evidence against Christianity. As science continues to disprove parts they will be added to the atheists ammunition. That's not cherry picking. It's pointing out the facts.

Things don't always hAve 2 valid sides.