The Act of Choosing.

I was talking with a good friend of mine last night, and I always enjoy our talks as they truly make me think. Anytime we argue about God he constantly reminds me that I have a linear way of thinking about time. It is true, our perception of time is linear, and it is a common misconception among both atheist and theist. Time is spherical. Picture a sphere imposing itself over a box. Everything actually just is. Time itself is a fallacy of the human mind. This life is an experience of becoming that which we already are. You see friends, I believe many of us here on ATS are at least capable of understanding that everything is connected, a universal consciousness of sorts.

I believe, intuitively, everyone in the world can feel that connection to this consciousness. I also believe, however, that each person can intuitively feel that separation of their own person. It therefore stands, that this universal consciousness also has the same separation of its own person.

You see I would say I am thankful for our current state of being. You see if God exist, his own unique person has a fractal that only He can reach. A perfect state if you will. Adam and Eve are in a much higher fractal, but after the fall and they and all their offspring are born into a fractal that doesn't quite comprehend eternity. Eternity to me means that everything just is. God is eternal, and we call him the I Am. So the choices you made are still the choices you make and the choice you will make are choices that have already been made. Choices are eternal. So I believe the separate part of this universal consciousness knows that their are two eternal states. Two eternal choices. One choice leads to a path of eternity in which you are connected to all through God, and One choice leads to eternal separation from all.


It is up to you to decide what choice to make, and time is fallacy that God has put in front of our eyes so that you may choose to be part of all that is. It is a gift. Once you are brought back up into that higher fractal the choices you made are the choices you will make forever. Time is short, but is meant for us to grow in our understanding of that which already is. That connection you feel to everything that is, that you feel deep inside. It has a will behind it, and it wants to know you. However, you must choose to recognize its own unique separation before it will respond. God bless you all .

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Interesting thoughts.

Two eternal choices. One choice leads to a path of eternity in which you are connected to all through God, and One choice leads to eternal separation from all.

I thought you said we are all connected to a universal consciousness. Are you saying we have the possibility to extract ourselves from that truth?

It is up to you to decide what choice to make, and time is fallacy that God has put in front of our eyes so that you may choose to be part of all that is. It is a gift. Once you are brought back up into that higher fractal the choices you made are the choices you will make forever.

So it sounds more like a deadline than a choice. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that thinking. We can always make different choices at the next opportunity....

In my opinion God is consciousness, we are the fractals of that consciousness, all containing the whole.

In my opinion the physical universe is a hologram of our consciousness. What happens when you cut a hologram of an apple in half a million times? You get 2 million whole apples, not halves and halves of halves as you would think. The whole is preserved through this act of separation, and each individual "half" contains and preserves the entirety of the whole.

Think of us as this apple that has been sliced in half also many times. The apple represents God, and we, the slices, contain the whole of God, only in an individualized form.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

You see friends, I believe many of us here on ATS are at least capable of understanding that everything is connected, a universal consciousness of sorts.

Good OP.

Just to add: there's nothing "universal" about consciousness. "Consciousness" is confined to the one who is conscious, and it is nothing but a word without any content. Add the suffix "ness" to the end of any adjective and you'll achieve the same results.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


I disagree, consciousness is the only substance that can be known. Anything "outside" of consciousness is only an extension of it. Consciousness is far from being without substance, it is what gives you the ability to make that statement in the first place.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I disagree, consciousness is the only substance that can be known. Anything "outside" of consciousness is only an extension of it. Consciousness is far from being without substance, it is what gives you the ability to make that statement in the first place.

Well it's not a substance is it. If it was, we'd be able to measure it or confirm in some way that it is indeed a substance. Any small amount of research into substance dualism will confirm this.

To make a statement such as this, one must first exist in order to do so. It requires that I am a living organism with all the necessary functioning body parts. Birds cannot make this statement, not because they lack consciousness, but because they lack the necessary body parts required to do so. If consciousness is required to make a statement, then why are the other animals not making statements? The quality of being conscious is a quality of the organism, and therefor comes second to, and is a product of, whatever entity it is that is conscious.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
In my opinion God is consciousness, we are the fractals of that consciousness, all containing the whole.

In my opinion the physical universe is a hologram of our consciousness. What happens when you cut a hologram of an apple in half a million times? You get 2 million whole apples, not halves and halves of halves as you would think. The whole is preserved through this act of separation, and each individual "half" contains and preserves the entirety of the whole.

Think of us as this apple that has been sliced in half also many times. The apple represents God, and we, the slices, contain the whole of God, only in an individualized form.

You and my friend both have very similar views. Which quite honestly extremely similar to mine

In your anaology of the apple. Isn't it probable that the apple that represents god has a unique individualized form all of its own? Meaning shouldn't you be able to converse with that entity as you do me?

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


That's exactly what's happening right now. We are the fullness of the apple contained in parts. We are slices of the apple and each slice is the apple itself, only individualized. A hologram preserves all of its qualities when cut into slices, and the fullness of those qualities lie in each slice, meaning the fullness of God lies within each and every one of us. We are God experience itself.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

That's exactly what's happening right now. We are the fullness of the apple contained in parts. We are slices of the apple and each slice is the apple itself, only individualized. A hologram preserves all of its qualities when cut into slices, and the fullness of those qualities lie in each slice, meaning the fullness of God lies within each and every one of us. We are God experience itself.

There seems to be no distinction between your will and gods will in that view though. You and I are both part of the whole yet distinctly different. I am asking isn't it probable that the source of what connects all has its own distinct will just as you an I do.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


God's will is free will. We all have free will even if our individual free will is different from one another. God's will is our will because it is free will, something we all possess.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

God's will is free will. We all have free will even if our individual free will is different from one another. God's will is our will because it is free will, something we all possess.

I am not sure I agree with that, but I cannot deny it.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Can't ask much more than that. Good luck on your journey brother, I can tell you're starting to make some big steps. Keep an open mind.

LesMisanthrope


Well it's not a substance is it. If it was, we'd be able to measure it or confirm in some way that it is indeed a substance. Any small amount of research into substance dualism will confirm this.

We can absolutely measure consciousness. A doctor can declare somebody either conscious or unconscious so right there, you have a binary observational measure. You bring up dualism which sort of advocates for the measuring of everything in at least a binary form.

Now, look at gravity. We can't measure it but we can measure the effect it has therefore we say we can. So why does consciousness hold a different standard?

LesMisanthrope
To make a statement such as this, one must first exist in order to do so. It requires that I am a living organism with all the necessary functioning body parts. Birds cannot make this statement, not because they lack consciousness, but because they lack the necessary body parts required to do so. If consciousness is required to make a statement, then why are the other animals not making statements? The quality of being conscious is a quality of the organism, and therefor comes second to, and is a product of, whatever entity it is that is conscious.

You are knitpicking his example of "typing" being a result of consciousness but I think you know what he meant. Replace "typing" or "making a statement" with simply "being aware" or "observing". Those are things that aren't achieved by simply replicating the tissue and biology of a brain. This is why machines are not "conscious".

Yet...

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


You have many points in your thread that could be addressed however I'll only address the title ...choosing.

Man has the ability to choose by the mechanism of the will in our (for lack of another term).... "consciousness'. Man can choose by their will however none of those choices are free of causation.Since every effect has a cause, the chain of causes and effects are how the will chooses.Since no man can control(or was the original source) of all the causes and effects that they experience none of the choices are free of causation.

In other words man does not have a will that is free of causation.That doesn't mean what so many believe it does.Man is not an automaton/puppet having it's string pulled by the creator God(or TPTB or a gray aleins).Everyone is "acting" in accordance to their nature and characther.It is an amalgamation with their experiences(cause and effects).

Many believe God gave man free will(they even believe it is in the scriptures which it isn't) so that "they" could freely choose to "love" God(or not).That is not true in the least.That is the basis of justification of some (many) to beleive their (and others) "choices".In other words it is a type of "bragging" rights....I "wisely" chose to "love,obey,etc etc etc.. God,Buddha,my higher self,my mother.....When none of that is true.

The fact is none are doing ANYTHING free of cause.It is only their false "perception of reality" that creates the illusion(and delusion).There is nothing that you can chose to do that is not the sum of your experience(and all those myriad of experiences connected to those experiences) in conjunction with your inborn, innate nature and character(which you had NOTHING to do with).

Solomon rightly said .... vanity of vanities ALL is vanity.Yes...your choices are yours to make.You are accountable for them however ...you are not RESPONSIBLE for them.You are not the only or original cause in any of them.It is the conundrums of all conundrums wrapped in an enigma.If you try to chase it down and analyze it by vivisection you will go mad and believe more lies until everything is a lie that you believe is true.

The fact is everything you do is out of your control because the creator God is 100% in control of everything.Some may think they are "part" of God or think God thoughts but they would be very, wrong (and very,very deluded).Everything you do is 100% in accordance to YOUR nature and character. Good fruit does not come from a bad tree nor bad fruit from a good tree.Your choices are in accordance to your nature and character. That is your fruit grown from your tree.A tree cannot "will" itself to grow good fruit.It grows according to it's nature.

Observing (measuring..judging)your fruit growing is futile.It is a waste of time and effort not living IN the moment(which is the only time it can be lived).Looking "here and there" for a "kingdom" that doesn't' exist here nor there.Your fruit is YOU ..growing.....In essence you are not even born yet!There is nothing to observe/measure/judge that will "change" anything.It is like trying to capture the wind with a butterfly net .

Your choices are just you growing.It isn't "learning" anything.You can do absolutely "nothing" about how you "grow".When you were nothing but a lone spermatozoon of your fathers swimming up your mothers fallopian tube you were only acting in accordance to your "spermy" nature.That was your physicals life beginning and YOU had NOTHING to do with every cause and effect since.You can only "experience"(live) it.

The only good thing about the false belief that you have will free of cause is like being in the matrix.You are in complete ignorance to reality.You "believe" your life is your own and you are the master of your own reality and destiny however...Nothing could be further from the truth...thank GOD!!...if that is your reality ...take another blue pill and sweet dreams in the matrix.

reply to post by Rex282


It seems to me that with your view, there is no point to life. If we have no control of our lives, what's the point of it all? Is god just pulling our strings while we go along for the ride?

If I choose not to go out to a bar tonight, that wasn't my decision, but god's who decided it an eternity ago? If that's the case then what is the point of babies being born then dying the same day because of some freak accident?

Or is there no point to it in place of it being random chance that was not already decided long ago?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
It seems to me that with your view, there is no point to life.

That isn't what I said.Life(in the physical realm) does have a point..Life..live it.It is part(a stage) of the process of LIFE.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
If we have no control of our lives, what's the point of it all?

The fact is you have no control of it.That's reality.Unreality is believing you have control.The only thing you are doing is making choices according to your nature and character and the experiences you've had and the outside experiences of everyone that ever lived(by osmosis).You have no control over your choices causes.You just believe you do.The chain of causes and effects in alignment to your nature and character cause you to make choices you do.

The point of life is experiencing the natural process of growth(which is only in the stages of conception in the physical realm).To try and quantify it's point about anything besides that reality is pointless.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
Is god just pulling our strings while we go along for the ride?

No.The creator God does not need to pull any strings to be in control.There are no strings attached.Everyone is acting according to their nature and character. The creator God is the cause of the process of Life(the meaning of spirit).There is no ride.The physical realm/universe is a matrix where the physical creation is growing.ALL created (controlled) by the creator.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
If I choose not to go out to a bar tonight, that wasn't my decision, but god's who decided it an eternity ago?

No.The creator God does not exist in an "eternity"(which the meaning is age not endless time).The creator God does not pre"decide" actions of the creation.The creator God is not IN the matrix of the space/time continuum. Those are physical realm constructs of linearity.The creator God is not bound by physical realm physics of any kind.They created it.They do not "do" actions linearly they way we do in the physical realm.We experience cause and effect linearly in time however the creator isn't bound by them.Our whole history of time and space is like a piece of paper they draw 2 dimensional objects on.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
If that's the case then what is the point of babies being born then dying the same day because of some freak accident?

Why ask me. I don't know the core reason neither do you nor anyone else.It does nothing to speculate why.The fact is it did.That is not evidence of a will free of cause.That's the point ...why speculate at all.All things in the physical universe are completely out of our control.We are not given reasons why "ALL" things happen because we can't control them.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
Or is there no point to it in place of it being random chance that was not already decided long ago?

There is no such things as random chance.EVERY effect had a cause(s).That doesn't mean we "know" every cause.The futility is in believing by "knowing" causes you can control them.But it's like whack a mole..another cause will pop up out of a hole.
You can do everything in the world known to live a healthy life and bam an accident can take you out.The fact is 100% of EVERYONE and thing ...dies despite all of mans efforts to control it.

There is a psychological syndrome for people that have a perverted sense of control in the vernacular called control freaks....ego maniacal. They try to "control" their environment( and people) by their "will".The reality is they are not in control at all but are only acting according to their nature and character which at the core is spurned on by fear.Fear of loss of control.

They question EVERYTHING about control because they fear not having any.In the new testament they are called "possessed by a demon/devil"(the root word is diabolo which means to flow through a channel).

Mans will has a very definitive purpose.It is the mechanism which choices are made however that is not to be confused with choices free of cause.Those choices are made according to our nature and character form our experience which form "us".It's a process that we "experience"(through our very limited perception) linearly.

The very basic premise of "The Matrix" is very true.The physical universe is a matrix of sorts(not a virtual hologram world).The matter man "perceives" is very REAL.What is not true is mans perception. The core untruth of mankind's perception is the illusion of a will free of cause.That "colors" every perception of reality something it isn't.

That is where Morpheus and Solomon come together. Take the blue pill and go back to sleep in the matrix with false perceptions or take the red pill and be like Solomon knowing wisdom and ALL of it's "sorrows"...vanity of vanities all is vanity.I suggest most of humanity take the blue pill(which they have according to their nature and character).It is through the nature and character which pill someone can swallow.

reply to post by Rex282


Just to start off, I don't want you thinking I am trying to argue with you brother, I am only giving my own view. It's okay if you disagree with me.

The fact is you have no control of it.That's reality.Unreality is believing you have control.The only thing you are doing is making choices according to your nature and character and the experiences you've had and the outside experiences of everyone that ever lived(by osmosis).You have no control over your choices causes.You just believe you do.The chain of causes and effects in alignment to your nature and character cause you to make choices you do.

I disagree. We have control over Mother Earth, we build all sorts of things from what Earth gives us, meaning we have control over part of our life, manipulating it into extremely complex and intricate machines such as the Mars rover.

Have you ever seen anything like the Mars rover in nature? No, because we invented it. That's shows that we have control of at least part of life. We manipulate Earth which is a huge part of life, half of it to be exact in my opinion. The environment around you shapes your experience, we can therefor manipulate the environment to create balance for the system that creates consciousness and is also what I consider to be God.

No.The creator God does not need to pull any strings to be in control.There are no strings attached.Everyone is acting according to their nature and character. The creator God is the cause of the process of Life(the meaning of spirit).There is no ride.The physical realm/universe is a matrix where the physical creation is growing.ALL created (controlled) by the creator.

But it is all predestined by god, meaning he controlled the outcome from the very beginning and we are being pulled by strings to act in the way he desires. So yes, he is controlling us as you admit further down.

Do you not believe we control the way societies form and create the environment those societies have? Cities built by men do not have higher crime rates than out in the country where hardly anyone lives? We built those cities and brought everyone together and created governments that rule over everyone. That creates an environment of deception and war where countries are bombed and blown up in the name of pride and honor for the one sending them to war and death.

As I said before, we control the creation called Earth. We manipulate it then build things out of it to learn about it. In that way the creation controls the creator too in the name of laws like gravity, inertia, thrust, and what materials we can use to build a rover sent to Mars. It limits us to a point though in that we have to constantly find loopholes and workarounds to achieve these things with what we are provided.


We even create new life by our choice to have sex and create babies with unique personalities and viewpoints.

No.The creator God does not exist in an "eternity"(which the meaning is age not endless time).The creator God does not pre"decide" actions of the creation.The creator God is not IN the matrix of the space/time continuum. Those are physical realm constructs of linearity.The creator God is not bound by physical realm physics of any kind.They created it.They do not "do" actions linearly they way we do in the physical realm.We experience cause and effect linearly in time however the creator isn't bound by them.Our whole history of time and space is like a piece of paper they draw 2 dimensional objects on.

Age is very closely related to eon which is derived from the Greek "aion" which means "age" and when used in the plural sense it means eternity, or something without beginning or end, which in my opinion represents reincarnation and the infinite lives we will live, meaning we never stop reincarnating.

What's your age? What are your ages or "eternity"? You have infinite lifetimes, this is just the one you happen to be living in right now.


So the creator God or "intelligence" isn't restricted by physics? What about your thoughts? You can create a world within your mind that doesn't even exist, you can imagine a donkey flying without wings if you want to. The creation of that thought is not controlled by physics, meaning our intelligence is the creator God that you're talking about because we have those exact attributes as well.

The image you see is the paper that is being written on by the workings of your brain and mind.

Why ask me. I don't know the core reason neither do you nor anyone else.It does nothing to speculate why.The fact is it did.That is not evidence of a will free of cause.That's the point ...why speculate at all.All things in the physical universe are completely out of our control.We are not given reasons why "ALL" things happen because we can't control them.

Yet we control how the physical realm (a.k.a. our environment) is formed and the benefits and repercussions that that control led to. We created bombs, people have suffered because of them.

We most definitely do have the ability to control nature, we do that with the spiritual realm that is not restricted by physics. Math is not physical, yet we know how it works and control our environment with it.

There is a psychological syndrome for people that have a perverted sense of control in the vernacular called control freaks....ego maniacal. They try to "control" their environment( and people) by their "will".The reality is they are not in control at all but are only acting according to their nature and character which at the core is spurned on by fear.Fear of loss of control.

The environment we control forms our nature and character and they are both parts of the spiritual realm. The creation has control of the creator in the same way that the creator controls the creation. It's all about balance.

Again, this is all my opinion.

reply to post by Cuervo

We can absolutely measure consciousness. A doctor can declare somebody either conscious or unconscious so right there, you have a binary observational measure. You bring up dualism which sort of advocates for the measuring of everything in at least a binary form.

Declaring someone conscious is an observation of the one the doctor is examining, not of any substance called "consciousness". "Conscious" is an adjective. In grammar we use adjectives to describe nouns. Adjectives are descriptions, or in other words, observations about something. When a doctor says someone is conscious, they are "measuring" that someone and are talking about the body.

So no, "consciousness" is not measured as a substance, it is measured as a quality, or the degree to which one is observed to be conscious.

When you look at a conscious child, do you see "consciousness", or do you see that child?

You are knitpicking his example of "typing" being a result of consciousness but I think you know what he meant. Replace "typing" or "making a statement" with simply "being aware" or "observing". Those are things that aren't achieved by simply replicating the tissue and biology of a brain. This is why machines are not "conscious".

I was making an argument. It is you who is knitpicking.

I was arguing that typing is the result of the human body, just like "being aware" or "observing". And no, brains cannot type, or be aware or observe without the rest of the body. I never implied that it did. I specifically mentioned the body, and not the brain.

Yet...

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


What makes it not a substance? We can all attest to it being there and we can evaluate it either being there or not being there.

We've known of many things throughout history long before we were able to measure them. That is why we achieved ways to measure them.

The only evidence that leads to our consciousness being a product of our biology is that they can remove the connection we have to the world and then record the lack of consciousness. All that proves is that our interface is needed to interact with the world with our consciousness. There are tons of anecdotal cases that say the opposite and that our bodies are not required for consciousness.

This is sort of like in ages past when they debated that thunder was holy wrath from the gods. We knew it existed and we studied it until we concluded that it was not some divine anger issues. What we did not do was hide it in a corner and say it was just a part of the sky and therefore had no unique properties or identity.

Cuervo
The only evidence that leads to our consciousness being a product of our biology is that they can remove the connection we have to the world and then record the lack of consciousness. All that proves is that our interface is needed to interact with the world with our consciousness. There are tons of anecdotal cases that say the opposite and that our bodies are not required for consciousness.

What about people that suffer brain/head injuries any develop completely new personalities? or receive brain damage and are unable to look after themselves anymore?

I know a man that after crashing his motorbike and hitting his head on the ground incredibly hard, has since become very aggressive, left his wife and family and is now in jail, a complete 180 to how he was previously. All down to the trauma and damage his brain received.

If consciousness is anything other than a product of a brain, why do these things happen? and can you give an example of a (confirmed) consciousness that didn't come with a squishy brain?