What was God's Son really worth?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So a person can follow like 15% of the Bible and call themselves Christian?

Where does it say in the New Testament
that you have to believe in the Old Testament?
All you have to do to be a Christian is to believe in Jesus and to join the church.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

He literally took the entire weight and punishment of all sin that has ever been committed, and will ever be committed, so that human beings would have a chance at redemption.

I am not aware of this being discussed in the New Testament.
Jesus bore sins, it says that, and he was treated as a sinner, including of course punishment since that was the purpose of crucifixion.
But there isn't mention of a vicarious nature of it, as if we somehow can avoid punishment ourselves, by the taking of it for us, by Jesus.

In a metaphorical sense, because of his coming to save us, we can avoid the judgment that is coming on the world, and that includes everything that he did, one of those things being physical suffering.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

Man's redemption comes from repenting, or turning from, unbelief to belief. All that is required for salvation is to put your complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ to save you from eternal condemnation. There is nothing that you can do to save yourself... no amount of good works can save you, only faith in Jesus Christ can save you.

"Redemption" is the freeing of the people of the world from having to be Old Testament keeping Israelites in order to be "saved".
Under the new covenant, we can be "saved" by being in the church, which is the successor to the position which the physical Israel formerly held.
The requirements for being "saved" was now not keeping the old written Mosaic Law, but was now following the Law of Faith as a member of the sanctified body, the church.
"Saved" means joining the congregation of the saved, or those under the particular protection of God.
So we are saved to good works, which is the requirement for maintaining membership in this community, but that righteousness in not gauged by the old Law, but by a new law that is written in our hearts as a special Gift from God, by partaking in His spirit, that comes to us through Jesus.

reply to post by oktopus

The human named Jesus was the Word made flesh.

Can you explain what that is supposed to mean exactly?

I think that is a rather simplistic interpretation of John 1:14.

What it seems to be saying in the Greek is that there came about a thing, the Logos Sarx, which then needs further interpretation as to what that might mean.
Romans 3:20 says that ". . . by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified . . ." where the word Sarx here means mankind, or people in their natural state in this sinful world.

So as the dynamic force accompanying God at the creation was instrumental to turning the natural planet into an inhabitable world, It now, at this prophesied time, becomes present to give life to a humanity which otherwise are doomed to a limited existence and then going away forever.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Well friend, Jesus says I and the Father are One. Fun Fact, the word translated "one" in greek is the same word used to say the number 1. Indicating Jesus meant he and the Father were one and the same.

I'm sure that Jesus meant that in a metaphorical sense, the word one meaning literally one notwithstanding.

John 1 says the same thing.

No, it doesn't, and would you like to explain the logic that has you arrive at that conclusion?

Why was Jesus's sacrifice so great? Because he was the spotless lamb. He was a completely righteous man. He never sinned, and he was God.

I'm sure that Peter was speaking metaphorically when he compared Jesus to a spotless lamb. He was talking about why we should be like him, to live without sin.
In the eyes of the heads of the Jerusalem temple cult, and the representatives of Moses as arbiters of the Law, he was a sinner and deserving or the harshest punishment available.
The question is if there is a fundamental law that overrides that religious law in the judgment of God.

God was testing Abraham here to see if humans were capable of having enough faith to sacrifice there only son for Him.

If that was the case, then it seems awfully peculiar that the New Testament never picks up on that theme.

. . . God stops him and provides not only an offering for that day, but also provides his Son, which is his one and only physical image, as the offering for mankind a good long while later.

Actually it was "the angel of the Lord" who stopped him.
What do you mean by "the offering for mankind" and is that something that the Bible teaches somewhere?

It is unfortunate how logos routinely gets translated into English as "word", and then that is treated as the only possible translation. To do so strips gJohn of the author's clearly intended connotation of the term. Ostensibly, it does mean word, but it also has a far wider meaning within the context of Hellenistic philosophy, nay, Greek philosophy extending as far back as the Pre-Socratics. Heraclitus of Ephesus, himself, used the term in this manner as early as the 6th century BC, if we can trust the accounts of Diogenes Laertius. Personally, I find it likely that John was using the term logos in the Stoic, and yet theological, sense, much as Philo of Alexandria did before him.

reply to post by agnisvaha

In the quoted verse Jesus is responding to Pharisee's who are accusing him of being satan for performing an exorcism (casting out demons)

It's a demonic associate of Baal.
It goes back to Elijah and the priests of Baal and the power to call down fire from heaven.
It could mean that in order for God to indicate who his true prophet was, He would prevent those abilities in the ones who did not represent Him.
Along that line of reasoning, no one else was at the moment casting out demons.
When there was , later, they were doing it in Jesus' name.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Pardon me, but that's just silly. Allow me to finish..."And the cow jumped over the moon."

reply to post by agnisvaha

Pardon me, but that's just silly.

Maybe you should try reading some Bible commentaries sometime.
Read the explanation for that topic of the house divided (Mark 3:25) in Mark: Hermeneia, by Adela Yarbro Collins.

jmdewey60
reply to post by agnisvaha

 

Pardon me, but that's just silly.

Maybe you should try reading some Bible commentaries sometime.
Read the explanation for that topic of the house divided (Mark 3:25) in Mark: Hermeneia, by Adela Yarbro Collins.

Thanks but no thanks... Might I also make a few suggestion for future reading?

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

The Dragons of Eden by Carl Sagan.

The Necessity of Atheism by Percy Bysshe Shelley

Enjoy.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
IMHO the Son of God is within all of us and IS us, Jesus represents what is within all of us and he was only trying to show us the way we should lead our lives, in LOVE and fellowship with one another. He did not come to die for sins, that is a religious invention to keep the masses blind to the truth.

As far as our Mother (the Mother of the Son), that would be Mother Earth, or physical existence. The Father is the Spirit that gives the Son (us) life and the Mother is what gives the Son (us) a physical form. When you bring the physical (Mother) and spiritual (Father) together in "marriage", you have life, a.k.a. the mind or "Son of God" where the two become One.

We all have an invisible side to us, a part that we don't see, that is what Christianity calls the Spirit or Father. They left out the Mother from their teachings in order to exploit her for her resources and become rich off of her. We see how we kill the planet today, that is because we were never taught about the Mother and how she deserves just as much admiration as the Father.

So you ask what was so special about Jesus? Nothing really, he is us and we are him. The only thing "special" about him was the message he taught, something we can all follow and attain, but only if we try.

John 14
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

edit on 3/8/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/8/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Again...... here you go spreading your religious pagan views which none of it you can prove except through stories written down on a rock or a tree somewhere. We have discussed this before and you should consider stop spreading this web of lies.

This is nothing more than a trap and all who fall for this new age/witchcraft outlook will also be caught up in a trap.

Jesuslives4u
3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesuslives4uAgain...... here you go spreading your religious pagan views which none of it you can prove except through stories written down on a rock or a tree somewhere. We have discussed this before and you should consider stop spreading this web of lies.This is nothing more than a trap and all who fall for this new age/witchcraft outlook will also be caught up in a trap.

With your 'adept-like knowledge'; and a supernaturally uncanny sense of delving/ferriting out New-Age/Pagans (actually called in this decade, under the umbrella 'Metaphysics') 'untruths' revealed as being LIES, what is your opinion of 'Gnostics'.

Jesuslives4u

3NL1GHT3N3D1
IMHO the Son of God is within all of us and IS us, Jesus represents what is within all of us and he was only trying to show us the way we should lead our lives, in LOVE and fellowship with one another. He did not come to die for sins, that is a religious invention to keep the masses blind to the truth.

As far as our Mother (the Mother of the Son), that would be Mother Earth, or physical existence. The Father is the Spirit that gives the Son (us) life and the Mother is what gives the Son (us) a physical form. When you bring the physical (Mother) and spiritual (Father) together in "marriage", you have life, a.k.a. the mind or "Son of God" where the two become One.

We all have an invisible side to us, a part that we don't see, that is what Christianity calls the Spirit or Father. They left out the Mother from their teachings in order to exploit her for her resources and become rich off of her. We see how we kill the planet today, that is because we were never taught about the Mother and how she deserves just as much admiration as the Father.

So you ask what was so special about Jesus? Nothing really, he is us and we are him. The only thing "special" about him was the message he taught, something we can all follow and attain, but only if we try.

John 14
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

edit on 3/8/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/8/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Again...... here you go spreading your religious pagan views which none of it you can prove except through stories written down on a rock or a tree somewhere. We have discussed this before and you should consider stop spreading this web of lies.

This is nothing more than a trap and all who fall for this new age/witchcraft outlook will also be caught up in a trap.

Says the guy whose favorite book - *cough* Bible *cough cough* - is 80% pagan traditions and folklore. Man who lives in glass house...how does the rest of it go?

AfterInfinity

Jesuslives4u
Again...... here you go spreading your religious pagan views which none of it you can prove except through stories written down on a rock or a tree somewhere. We have discussed this before and you should consider stop spreading this web of lies.
This is nothing more than a trap and all who fall for this new age/witchcraft outlook will also be caught up in a trap.

AfterInfinitySays the guy whose favorite book - *cough* Bible *cough cough* - is 80% pagan traditions and folklore. Man who lives in glass house...how does the rest of it go?

SHOULD NOT THROW STONES.

When I gave you these truths the last time, you thought I was referring to myself. Thus, you have elevated images of a "Jesus" who is human. While I had figured out these truths and taught parabolically so as to not steal your growth, you have been led to believe that they were about humans. In actuality it was an explanation of the cosmos, physics, physiology, and whatever you needed in order to find life and leave this plane of existence. As humans are deceitful naturally they have twisted my words and associated images that are not true with the words that were given. Now that you have digested the false words they make your stomach bitter, and well, you see what has happened here. There was nothing special about me as I said "you are all, sons of God". Instead you rely on the workings of humans and choose this life of contrasts. Look at the buildings and institutions you have built, in order to stay here. When I spoke of Jesus, I was referring to Jupiter. When I spoke of the Father, I spoke of the Sun. When I spoke of Satan, I spoke of Saturn. I do not hold any responsible for their sins(sines), It is the reason you exist here. I spoke of it in order to educate of what effect the actions that always seem to be taught as acceptable, have on the Christ/oil/water. The Christ that resides in you and throughout the universe.

All is well and the plan is still to be completed those whom have managed to be the best beings they could be and have not fallen for the lies of the el-ites will have a chance to become Man. Those who have squandered their Christ will have to face death. The torment is not forever, and every being will eventually enter Heaven, which is the next livable plane. This will happen either by choice or force. The forceful way of course being the destruction of this plane as the sun engulfs it, i.e. hell.

reply to post by StoutBroux


You ever looked into Islam? According to Islam, God does not bear children. He does not procreate, but He creates. All it took was a single Word, a single Command: BE! And christ was. A miraculous conception without a father.

Was christ supposed to be crucified? Not according to Islam. His mission was to be an example, a rolemodel. When he was threatened by his enemies. God intervened and saved him. The reason why they wanted him crucified was to disprove him as the messiah, cause you can't crucify God's messiah. As I said, God saved his annointed one.

reply to post by Jesuslives4u


It's not a trap, you only see it that way because you have been taught to be afraid of it. I'm not pagan nor do I worship any of their gods, I'd call my view pantheism if anything, but I choose not to label myself.

The only trap is the one they have set on you in my opinion.

All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.


I wonder which act the Christians (or at least those who have been persuaded by the sheer ambiguous lunacy of literal interpretation) are in? Which age are they demonstrating according to the delusive power of the script? Such is its efficacy that it can hide as well as exacerbate unresolved psychological complexes which the discerning are obliged to help alleviate if its pain is deemed overwhelming.

If we err, let it be on the side of mercy rather than on the side of condemnation and harsh dealing. -Ellen G. White [7 Day Adventist]

agnisvaha
All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
I wonder which act the Christians (or at least those who have been persuaded by the sheer ambiguous lunacy of literal interpretation) are in? Which age are they demonstrating according to the delusive power of the script? Such is its efficacy that it can hide as well as exacerbate unresolved psychological complexes which the discerning are obliged to help alleviate if its pain is deemed overwhelming.

Esoteric knowledge explains this: mankind lives here in a Shakespearian Play. This is not real, just a physical (heavier) representation of the higher dimensions. Would it surprise you to know that no other place in any other solar system, galaxy exists at what has formulated on 'Eeath'. This is an experiment for a spirit based entity occupying a heavy vehicle (human, animal, flora). Its never been done before, this is unique in an expression of AUO (absolute unbounded oneness) (a binary plasma think tank you call 'god') to see itself to a fruition so far this is what has been accomplished, and as yet have not destroyed ourselves/Itself. Not to say it wont come to a final conclusion; but the Absolute will just start all over again. No one gains other than their own spiritual progression continues (that is the point). You will Grok this once you leave your physical body. The Kingdom Jesus spoke of was this state of being.

vethumanbeing

Esoteric knowledge explains this: mankind lives here in a Shakespearian Play. This is not real, just a physical (heavier) representation of the higher dimensions.

I am inclined to agree.

vethumanbeing

Would it surprise you to know that no other place in any other solar system, galaxy exists at what has formulated on 'Eeath'.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

vethumanbeing

This is an experiment for a spirit based entity occupying a heavy vehicle (human, animal, flora).

An experiment conducted by whom? Supposing that you can answer this question it really won't amount to anything more than a theory; a speculation based on variegated interpretations of the cosmogenetic myths. One could just as easily posit that psychoactive mushrooms are responsible for the evolution of mind; that its chemically enervating reactance elicited some type of nootropic action? However, the most discerning understand that there exists what seems to be a non-local aspect of mind. I say 'seems' because it is possible that any autonomy that we might ascribe to it could be merely an unconscious organismic facet of ourselves which demonstrates a continuity of mind. All minds are able to experience this substrate consciousness but it would be otherwise unrecognizable save for our anthropomorphic tendencies.

vethumanbeing

Its never been done before, this is unique in an expression of AUO (absolute unbounded oneness) (a binary plasma think tank you call 'god') to see itself to a fruition so far this is what has been accomplished, and as yet have not destroyed ourselves/Itself.

We shouldn't be inflexible when it comes to allegorizing a phenomena that we are just beginning to unravel through the lens of modern science. If we can know it, it can be emulated. If our reality is, as you suggest, a giant simulation; an experiment of sorts then it should have an objective frame of reference whereof its mechanism of operation may be observed and compared for variations, subtle changes in (test) subject disposition. If it is a controlled experiment then it must needs follow principles which can possibly be manipulated by the subject.

vethumanbeing

Not to say it wont come to a final conclusion; but the Absolute will just start all over again. No one gains other than their own spiritual progression continues (that is the point). You will Grok this once you leave your physical body. The Kingdom Jesus spoke of was this state of being.

The Kingdom Jesus spoke of is ambiguous save for a few very important if not telltale qualities which can allow the discerning "test subject" to prognosticate what such a place would be like in an empirical sense.