Scientists say they have located the 'conscience'...

reply to post by jonnywhite


That didn't cross my mind, but mankind has a history of thinking he is superior., however if he has a refined consciousness, he would be compassionate.

This is plate's cave in real life. I'm sure the scientists are congratulating eachother and awards will be passed out soon.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Fascinating... S/F !

Your link didn't go as far as to research what these ' poles ' look like in psychopaths, but I will try and keep up with developments...

When I saw your title, I actually had the tongue-in-cheek thought that maybe they had located the Conscience in orbit, or on some rural commune... definitely not in a corporate headquarters or government building.

Hope science can one day ( perhaps using stem-cells ) rebuild damaged and missing units...

Stormdancer777
It makes me wonder what is missing in people that seem to have no conscience.

That is a mirror neuron dysfunction. Completely different.

I wonder why spooky?

I would think trying to understand consciousness would be spooky.

but not conscience, it's cool that this has been discovered, except I got excited and was thinking they discovered the seat of consciousness for a sec.

still cool tho!

I also find the part that it's unique to humans very interesting.

Except I think Dogs might have something similar going on because it sure seems like they can display guilt and other emotions where i think bad and good conscience come into play....

Read the article again. This brain organ is responsible for considering the value of the conditional 'counterfactual', what probably could have happened had one's actions been different.

We already knew (he says, hastily consulting his copy of Popular Science for Dimwits) that the brain can monitor decisions it has made. It tells itself: "I have chosen to follow this track in the forest and it's turning out to be a sunlit pathway/sodden jungle", but it registers no more nuanced reaction than that. What this newly discovered region does, however, is to identify other paths that it might have been better to take, and register what a dolt the brain feels for getting it wrong.

"This region monitors how good the choices are that we don't take," said Professor Matthew Rushworth, who led the research, "How green the grass is on the other side."

Both Hannibal Lecter and Dalai Lama can do this. They just choose to score the value of the 'counterfactual' differently.

Dr Lecter might use his brussel sprout to hypothetically consider, "hmm, I suppose I could have continued a nice friendship" but then decide "nah, I enjoyed having him for dinner just too much".

The popularized article attached the "conscience" to the scientific result, not the original scientists. I believe this to be an error.

A conscience is your evaluation process before doing something, considering the value and importance of the consequences, in particular to people other than yourself.

This result is about is recognition of planning mistakes for the purpose of learning.

SOOOO many jokes popping into my head. Can't figure out if I should post any. Might get some people's panties in a bunch.

Pimpintology

Stormdancer777
It makes me wonder what is missing in people that seem to have no conscience.

That is a mirror neuron dysfunction. Completely different.

oh thanks

It's not clear whether this study is claiming to have found the part of our brain which allows us to have a sense of morality (a conscience) or if they have found the part of the brain which allows us to experience self awareness (a consciousness). It seems like they are blurring the two concept together, and I don't think that is a valid way to go about it. There probably isn't one single part of the brain you can point to and say "this is what makes us self aware", it's far more likely that all parts of the brain work together to form a highly complex network from which consciousness emerges. Of course you can remove some parts of the brain and the person will still remain conscious, but if you remove too much of any part of the brain the person will not remain conscious.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Great read Storm, thanks!

Franz-Xaver Neubert, said, "We have established an area in human frontal cortex which does not seem to have an equivalent in the monkey at all.

That part I really like. I guess Return of the Planet of the Apes will remain a
work of fiction, without a doubt.

I like your source, it goes more into details on the conscience aspect of the find.

ChaoticOrder
There probably isn't one single part of the brain you can point to and say "this is what makes us self aware", it's far more likely that all parts of the brain work together to form a highly complex network from which consciousness emerges.

While all parts work together, we have known for a long time that each area
has unique functions, so yes this actually shows by way of MRI the specific area that is used.

The combination of scans allowed the scientists to work out in exquisite
detail how each part of the ventrolateral frontal cortex (vlFC), a region crucial
for language and cognitive flexibility, was connected with any other part of the
brain. From this, they identified 12 distinct areas of the vlFC that worked in different ways.

The brain is a mosaic of interlinked areas. We wanted to look at this very important region
of the frontal part of the brain and see how many tiles there are and where they are placed.

"We also looked at the connections of each tile – how they are wired up to the rest of the
brain – as it is these connections that determine the information that can reach that component
part and the influence that part can have on other brain regions."

www.science20.com...

edit on 30-1-2014 by burntheships because: (no reason given)

Franz-Xaver Neubert, said, "We have established an area in human frontal cortex which does not seem to have an equivalent in the monkey at all.

burntheships
That part I really like. I guess Return of the Planet of the Apes will remain a
work of fiction, without a doubt.

Planet of the Apes was pretty far fetched and I'm pretty sure you were joking, but apes (superfamily Hominoidea) are already more advanced than monkeys (superfamily Cercopithecidae), and in fact some of them use tools to hunt, kill, and eat monkeys, which one might argue is even worse than just enslaving other primates like the fictional evolved apes did with humans.

The source says they didn't find anything similar in monkey brains. It doesn't mention anything about looking in ape brains, so if they didn't look, maybe we don't know if apes have a region similar to humans or not?

Arbitrageur


The source says they didn't find anything similar in monkey brains. It doesn't mention anything about looking in ape brains, so if they didn't look, maybe we don't know if apes have a region similar to humans or not?

Monkeys and Apes are both Simian Primates though.

I enjoyed reading that article and it definitely got me thinking!
There is two behind the eye brow? Also intriguing how our Pineal gland is in the center in between our eyebrows.
+1 and Flag

~Sovereign

burntheships
Monkeys and Apes are both Simian Primates though.

Monkeys Apes and humans are all primates.

My point is, I think there are enough differences that we can't draw conclusions about apes by looking at monkeys, especially when we already know about a lot of differences in diet, behavior, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the apes had areas in their brain that monkeys lacked.

reply to post by burntheships

While all parts work together, we have known for a long time that each area has unique functions,
so yes this actually shows by way of MRI the area that is used.

Yes, but what they have shown is an area of the brain which gives us a conscience. I'm saying we must keep in mind that there is a difference between a person with a "conscience" and person who is "conscious". Is it really so amazing that they were able to find a part of the brain which helps us determine what is "right" and "wrong"? I would argue that my dog or cat has a sense of what is right and wrong.

Arbitrageur
Monkeys Apes and humans are all primates.

Humans are not Simian, but Apes are. So while science categorizes humans
as Hominidae primate, there is a difference.

My point is, I think there are enough differences that we can't draw conclusions
about apes by looking at monkeys, especially when we already know about a lot
of differences in diet, behavior,

Recent research points to huge differences in the brains of humans and primates,
having nothing to do with diet.

Monkeys were found to have one unique network active during movie watching,
while humans had two other unique networks.

I suspect the reason they use monkeys rather than Apes is a big clue,
Apes are not as available for research, and if a Simian Primate brain
is good enough, well then monkeys are in plenty.

ChaoticOrder
I'm saying we must keep in mind that there is a difference between a person with a "conscience"
and person who is "conscious".

Well, yes...and maybe you are using the word "conscious" as in self aware?

Is it really so amazing that they were able to find a part of the brain which helps
us determine what is "right" and "wrong"?

I dont know if I would use the word amazing, actually I am suprised it took them
as long as it did.

And yes, I would agree that every dog and cat I have had exhibited a knowledge
of some sort....allowed actions as opposed to say...peeing on the carpet...lol.

A dogs tale. A short story by Chris

Keep chasing me go on you might catch me
I doubt it little doggy, when you catch me you will know. I dare you...In fact i double dare you....no wait....Physicall challenge hehe

Becarefull what you wish for you just might come to the void with me lol
Who knows right?

burntheships

And yes, I would agree that every dog and cat I have had exhibited a knowledge
of some sort....allowed actions as opposed to say...peeing on the carpet...lol.

Yep, although I've had people say that Max is just sensing my disapproval and acting in an appeasing manner to keep me from disciplining him (which is usually just The Voice Of Shame), in truth I generally find out that he's done something bad when he comes to me with the guilty act.

He'll walk up, put his ears back, and squat down with his tail tucked, and he'll look away. "What did you do, Max?" and it's slink slink slink to the scene of the crime, where he squats down again. It's tough not to believe that he knows he wasn't supposed to pee in my shoe, or jump up on the chair then to the table and get in some food, or turn his water over and roll in it or whatever he's done this time.

He has learned that if he 'fesses up to the deed fast enough, he won't get the Voice of Shame or worse, put outside in the garage for an hour.